Ben Josin Shoah Foundation Testimony

August 20th, 1996, interview with survivor Ben Josin, J-O-S-I-N, name at birth, Jasinski, J-A-S-I-N-S-K-I. My name is Ben Nachman, N-A-C-H-M-A-N. Interview was conducted in Omaha, Nebraska, United States of America, in English. Can you give me your name, please?

Ben, B-E-N, J-O-S-I-N, Josin.

And Ben, can you tell me what your name was when you were born?

It was Jasinski, Benach Jasinski, J-A-S-I-N-S-K-I.

Where were you born?

In Ozorkow, O-Z-O-R-K-O-W, Ozorkow in Polish, I say Ozorkow. By Lodz, by Lodz, L-O-D-Z, the big city.

When were you born?

October 4, 1919, 1919.

How old are you today?

About 76.

Can you tell me a little bit about growing up in Poland?

Well, I went to school in Ozarkow, and we were very poor people. I don't have too much school. I don't remember, four or five grades public school, because I had to work and support my mother. I had to just get out of school, because we couldn't afford it. My father didn't have a job, and I worked in a textile factory. I was management already, young guy. I was very ambitious, and I worked in the company. His name was Blankhead. Boro Blankhead, he had textile. My sister, I remember, worked there, too. We struggled. There was sometimes not food on the table. Very poor, you know, just the way it was, you know, as far as I remember.

Was this a large city you lived in?

Small, but I think about 30,000 population. The largest city was the next 24 kilometers, Lodz, L-O-D-Z, the biggest textile in Europe, the second largest city in Europe, Łódź, they say in Polish.

What kind of work did your father do?

My father was, most of the time, he didn't have no jobs, as far as I remember. When he was, I was little, he was textile by hand, and looms by hand, which they were obsolete. And then they came into everything, machines, and he couldn't, they wouldn't hire him to hire most of the younger people, and he had a hard time getting a job. So I was pretty successful. I worked, I was making five zlotys, five zlotys, which, I don't know whether here, maybe one dollar or two dollars a week, and I just dropped out of school because my mother didn't have money to buy [unclear].

Was there a large Jewish population in the city?

Eight thousand, probably. A third were Jews, very nice Jewish organization. I used to belong to the Maccabi, played soccer. Hashomer Hatzair was a Hebrew, Hebrew organization, was active there, you know, my childhood, and I didn't know any better, you know, it's poor, you're poor.

Did the Jewish people live in pretty much one part of the city?

They lived in one part of the city. I lived, when I lived mostly, well there was a few Jews, Catholics more, you know, it makes, in the, mostly the Jewish population, the richer one, they lived in closer to downtown, you know, I don't, I don't remember nobody to be too rich, just the boss where I worked. There was another couple of factories, mostly with textile, you know, manufacturing, yeah.

Did you grow up in a religious home?

Well, everybody was religious in Europe, yeah. I worked and happened to work on the Sabbath because this was my job, and my boss always told me, he says, I want you to be dressed up, come in, just watch the gears, they don't break the machine, just I don't want you to do any carrying or nothing. I was working there four or six hours, I don't remember, because I had to start, we had our own motors, power was running by our own, not from the city, our own electricity, and I knew everything how to do it, you know, on Saturday. And then the other six hours or four hours, another guy came to release me. Sometimes I work on Saturday, I work there, I work very hard, because I want to be somebody.

How many people were there in your family?

Well, we're, you know, we were, I had one sister was the oldest, and then two brothers younger than me we were four kids. One sister and three, three brothers. We had three brothers together, I had two brothers, four kids.

Did you have a lot of relatives living?

Well, we had some across the street, my mother's sister, and we had one in another little town, about 12 kilometers away, had another sister. Yeah, we had relatives, you know.

Did you travel back and forth to see your relatives?

When, after the...

No, when you were growing up.

I couldn't afford it, you know. I think when I had the job, I went to another town, I had a cousin there, you know, I kind of liked the cousin, you know, went to see this, my mother's, my mother's sister and daughter. I think we went with the little, with the, what you call, railroad, railroad, you know, about 12 kilometers. And so, otherwise, I'd never been in a big city, because I couldn't afford it. First, I had to work. It was expensive in Poland. If you don't have the money, even if it was cheap, if you don't have even a dollar, you cannot buy nothing. To give you a nickel. If you don't have it, you cannot get it. That's the way it was. Oh, then I worked, and, you know, then the war broke out. I had a little bit of money, but my mother gave me five zlotys. You know, I got my money back, thirty, thirty zlotys, forty, it was a lot of money. I gave it to my mother. My mother handed me back five. So, I have spending money. I was going with kids. I was dressed good, because my boss always, I asked him for money in advance, he'd give it to me. And I said, take off from every week, five zlotys. He took off once or twice. He said, forget about it. I went to tailors. In Europe, you had to go to a tailor custom-made, everything. They took the measurements, not like here. You know, everything custom-made, you know. And I was going with girls, with boys. I want to be presentable, even if I was a poor boy. Still was dressed up good. I managed.

Did you notice a big change in things as the war approached?

Well, the war approached. What do you mean, a change in the city?

Yes.

Well, I was there last year. It's dead, just like a ghost town, because mostly Jews had business, and you see on the street, and the mainstreet Jewish people; don't see nobody, just dead. The same in Lodz, big city, the same thing.

Can you tell something about how things started to happen when the Nazis invaded Poland?

Well, the Nazis invaded, and I was sitting right, we had a radio on the whole block. September 1, 1939, I remember that, today. And about two weeks later, the Nazis came in to Ozorkow, you know. You know, they were still fighting in Warsaw, and they took it fast, walked in just Blitzkrieg. And then, you know, we used to go to the Jewish committee. There was a guy ahead of it. The Germans said, we've got to have so many people who go to work for the soldiers. So we had to go register to the committee. We had a Juden altesten. Juden altesten means a head men of the Jews, and he said, and the Germans gave me an order, and he said, you have to supply 100 or 200 people. We pick them up right by the Jewish committee for work. You know, you work and this, they didn't pay you. Sometimes they were hurting you, they were beating you up, and in the night, they went back home. 1940, this was 1939, beginning. They made a, destroyed our synagogue, put gasoline on it. And the Polish Catholic Church put horses in and made a stable. And I was cleaning the horses in this Catholic Church. And then, 1940, I mean, we were afraid. We had to wear those Juden, Juden, those Star of David. Also, some, a little white thing, and it depends. We saw an officer, a gentleman, we had to take the hat off for him. Otherwise, he took a thing, a rubber thing, hit you with a hat, or a wooden thing. They tortured you. 1940, I was on the street and, you know, I was going, you know, this, and going to something boys or girls, a guy come in, soldiers were picking up men on the street. and the housing, and they caught me. I said, yeah, come on. 'Bist au jude?' They took us and I couldn't say goodbye to my parents, my family.

This was in 1940?

40, yeah. I don't remember the date, it was before Passover, because I remember Passover, I was in camp already. This was a labor camp by Danzig, Sdroin. S-D-R-O-I-N, did I told you this last night, It was Sdroin. You know, this was a labor camp. Um still with guards. You know, there was not SS, there was SR, the kind of yellow uniform. They had all different kind of organizations. We were building the Autobahn for Hitler, yeah. And I couldn't, my mother, I couldn't say goodbye. Then, in the first year, we could still write home. The mother was still home, there was no ghetto. The ghetto was in Lodz. It was not in my hometown. I write letters, I told my mother, don't worry, I'll make it.

You were doing labor in this camp all the time?

Yeah, cutting down trees. This was right close to Danzig, you know, just, you know. By the Baltic sea there, you know, labor camp. You know, you went to work, and they gave you the food. They don't give you enough, a piece of bread. It wasn't something, they didn't torture you, they just want you to work. And you know, you could get by for the time being, you know. We were young, and this was left for now. Then, from then on, I remember a year later, they sent us to Lithuania. They keep transferring all the time, they put you in, in the, what you call those, clothes, those car boxes back here, the cattles, where, you know, sometimes they couldn't breathe, couldn't go to the bathroom. Some people were jumping out, and they were jumping, they were shooting you. And then we went to one camp, you know, worked there in Lithuania. It was not the worst camp. However, I got sick, I had typhus fever. Very sick, and I was already in comma a few days. I had a gold tooth in me, and then when I felt better, the camp, the lager, the Komm Lagerfuhrer, the commander of the camp. He said, pull the gold out, because we need it for our soldiers on the front. You know, and then, this was in Latvia. Lithu- see, this about the country. Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, right here. This was in Latvia. So, somehow, I had two cousins there with me, and, you know, and somehow, my heart was telling me, and I got feeling better, it was typhus epidemic, people were dying every minute. It would strung you out faster, the faster you die, they said. There were women there, and children there, and older people. Labor camps, you know, and then my heart was telling me, he says, I have to get out of here, it doesn't look good. My cousin, my cousin's not alive, they died in Israel. His name was Ben, too. He said, see, we can get dressed. So, I fell, and then, we lay on bunk beds, you know, the preachers, they called. So, I passed out, it was two weeks. So, the next day, he says, come on, see. I had friends, which they gave me, they gave me a lot of sugar and bread. They gave away their ration, they gave away their, what they get in there, what you call, we got, we got 200 grams of bread, grams. They gave away to me just to get well. So, the next day, I tried to get dressed, and it went down. I still, I couldn't walk. Cousins walked me out, my barrack bag. See, this was a, one barrack, they called a krankenstube, sick people, was there, and this looked in my barrack, just, it's the same in the camp, just next. And, a few days later, SS came in, Gestapo, from Riga. Riga, Riga, the capital of Latvia, was, I don't know, 100 kilometers, 150. Latvia is a small country, Lithuania, smaller than Poland. And then, it was the commander said to us, and they, all over by the fence outside, SS, they put it down, they were drunk, you know, and they said, and the lager commander said, like this. You know, I tell you, in German, yeah. 'Alle alten Leute, alle Kinder, alle Kranken musse weg kommen.' And, 'du Kranke,' he looked at me, 'du Kranke kommst auf mich', to me. And I, you know, in the action, the guy did the whole thing, was Dr. Oberscharfuhrer Wiesner, I think they called him in Germany. SS, Dr. Wiesner, he was there. They called him Oberscharfuhrer like a, a colonel, I think, big guy. And I couldn't walk. And this man, and the, and the Wiesner looked at me, like you are looking at me, and I said, and then another thing, some mother wouldn't give up the kids. They took the kids and they throw on the trucks. Those trucks had like canvas around like American people, American soldiers have, American Army has. And it was in the fall, and I had, I was weighing probably, I don't know, maybe a 100 pounds. Had those stripes, uniform, and I was just staying back this cold, you know, drizzled back, drizzled here the other day and this and that. And I said to myself, I'm going to die, because they, they said another thing, 'Dies mutter, was fur die kindisch aufgaben komm mit komm.' The mother won't give up, release their child, can go there. Some mothers went to die with the kids. And I seen what's going on. I know you're not going in a paradise. Someplace, paradise. And the Germans said to us like this. The Russian Army was, was near Vilna that time, which wasn't too far. He says to us, like this in German, ''Wenn die Russen ein kommen, werden totschlagen.' If the Russian ever come in, they kill us. 'me mussen schitzen', they want to save us. 'me mussen schitzen', they want to save us. Which is a bunch of BS. And I said to myself, I'm going to die anyway. And I start, the minute I start walking, you know. And Wiesner, the doctor looked at me, like you're looking at me, he said help me God. And I walked back into my barrack. And we have Lithuanian guards inside. The Lithuanian happened to like me, they looked away. And I got back in under the bunk beds. We had one, two, three bunk beds. My heart was beating and I was so weak. And then the Lithuanian, I heard boots coming in. He comes in and says to me in Polish, the Lithuanian could speak Polish, are you there by yourself? I see you coming in. I will tell me if there's somebody else, I will shoot you over there. You can save yourself. I want to save you. And then in the night, it took a few hours. They call it action, the action, you know, a few hours. I heard the trucks on their own. And then I think we were 26 boys in one room. My cousin was there always with good people. We used to live good together. We share food sometimes. So there's a commander that says, oh, yeah, my God, Ben is gone, this guy. They say, Ben is gone. My head, I said, no, I'm here. I just put the head out, you know, looked up. They pulled me out. I was so weak. And then next day, so you had to go to the Baustellen. Baustellen means the place where you work. I don't know, 10, 12 kilometers. I couldn't walk. And another thing, in the morning, they get up in the morning. They call it Appell. They had to check on the list. So I was hiding between the tall people. So the Lageraltester wouldn't recognize me. Because I was, he thought I was gone on the truck with the sick, with the children, with the old people. Somehow he didn't see me. I went by. And then so I couldn't walk. So my friends throwing me on the shoulders, and they carried me out to work. And the foreman, he was a . . . I think he was a Nazi, although he was a little bit soft, what he's seen what they did. See, they had those people. I worked for the OT, Organisation Todt, OT. They have records, and they know. They were building bridges behind the front. They're the one that built the Autobahn. They were military. They were our foremen. They called Meister, Meister. And he, so they, so one, we had a guy ahead of us, Kolonnenfuhrer, had a white thing. He was like a foreman for us. And so he reported to him and says, they want to take me out away. They want to put them away with the kids. So he said, we got to help them. So he says, the foreman said to him, he says, put him to sleep in the forest. And if somebody comes from the big shots, you better wake him up. And so he wrote, he sent a couple people to the farms, Lithuania, Latvia, brought us ham and food, and they made a fire outside, but they, you know, and they cooked food that I can eat. I could eat so much like a whole bucket of soup. They told me, don't eat too much because it could kill you because my stomach was shrink. And then from there, no one sent us to a different camps.

What was the name of this second camp that you were in?

Where I was sick?

Yes.

Typhus, Eleja.

Eleja.

Eleja.

And that was in Lithuania?

This is Latvia, I think. Latvia. Right by the border. See, Lithuania and Latvia it was right. It opened. It was all about the country. There was no borders. You just cross over. And you're in Latvia. This was Latvia.

How were you treated in general by the guards?

The guards, the guards were, some people they were killing. Some people they like, I was always clean. And, you know, I didn't look Jewish. Maybe it's this. You know, it's just meant to be, I think, you know. And the typhus, I would just got into my head, and I just, I said, I cannot, I want to go on and see what happened. go hide myself under the preachers room, under the bed. And this way I survive, you know.

You mentioned that you were with two cousins. Were you with them from home?

Yeah, from home. One lived right across the street from me. And one is- their dead. And one lived, and his name is Ben Slamowitz. He lived in downtown Ozorkow. He didn't survive, neither. He survived the camp. He died in Israel. Both died in Israel. They were younger than me in a few years.

So after the second camp, you were moved again?

I was moved again. But again, in Latvia, the little camp, Roja, Gipka, all kind of names, but they worked right by the, by the, by the ocean, by the thing. We went out and got fish, and we ate the raw fish, just, you know. It was small camps. This is the reason, this is the reason I survived, I think. A smaller camp, you could survive easier than to be in Auschwitz. There was one camp. Stutthof was a bad camp, which I wasn't there too long. They took me out and sent me to another camp. Stutthof was a bit by Danzig again. It had ovens there and everything. In our camp, some of the camps that have no ovens, if they want to get rid of you, they took a whole 50, 100 people. They take them to the forest, and sometimes we hear shooting. And then a week, a few days later, the clothes came back. So they, you know, sometimes I work in a, in a barrack, but there were clothes there. So, you know, they would, you found tickets there to say, take revenge, throw down the jackets, you know, and pack it.

Were you still with the Todt organization at this time?

OT, no, no. That time, I was not, you know, different, you know, the SS, wait a minute. We have Lithuanian guards there. Lithuanian then Latvian. The Todt, we had just, I think, [Unclear]. I worked for the, when I worked on the autobahn, it was, was still the Todt, yeah. OT, OT they call it, Todt Organisation. They built, they were, I think, yellow uniform, they were working behind the fronts in bridges, you know. I was cutting the, what you call, you put under the, under the railroad tracks, it was wooden, wooden, what you call it, Mike, wooden? Ties Ties, yeah, I was cutting them. The Meister said, I'm a good worker. Maybe I survived, I don't know.

How was your food at this time?

Well, food was, they give you so much, and that's all, you know, a lot of people didn't have enough. We were organizing, we went out and got into the farmers, the Germans called, the Germans told us, you do everything you can, don't let me catch you. and if he caught somebody, either they shoot him. They said he was a Verbrecher, Verbrecher means, Verbrecher means you kill somebody. Either you shoot them, they hang them, you know. I was out once, and I think twice, and then, see my cousins went out, and they didn't let me go to the farmers, because, 'cause they got lost very easy in forest. You had to know how to- you had to go to the farmers, you had to be back before five o'clock before we go back to the camp. Otherwise, you're in trouble.

Were you treated very well by the civilians, or did you?

The Germans, well, I was not much in contact with civilians. I was in contact in the first camp, this drawing by civilians. They were, mostly they were Polish Germans. They speak Polish and German, you know. So we were, until we were doing that, we were, this is drawing, going back to 1940. Some people had, we used to get packages during the first year, and some people, the parents, send them shirts, and some people are more better off than I do. So I told the guys, some of my life and some not, he says, you got a shirt, I can bring you, let's say, five pounds of flour. He said, okay, bring me. I talked, see, I could speak German good, and I was never shy, I talked to the Meister. The Meister, I bring a new shirt, can you bring, oh yeah, I'll bring it to you. So, you know, I took something, and I get the rest of it to my friend. And we cooked water. They would put some flour, and we mixed, and we got a, he brought us some salt, and we had soup, okay, just a little. We made a, you know, from wood, because we brought home from the forest wood, and a little oven with a chimney, you know, like you have in here, a little. And that, we got survive. The typhus could kill me that time, you know, because I thought, I'm done. Somehow, you know, God was good to me, I was out, you know. Got in my head, you know, like a miracle, like you see. Started walking, couldn't walk, started walking.

In this labor camp, were you still living in a barracks?

Barracks, everything barracks, yeah.

Were you surrounded with barbed wire?

Barbed wire, and guards, yeah. First, they have the OT, and then we have Lithuania, Latvia. When we went to, you know, Lithuania, Latvia we went there in the country. They worked for the Germans, the Green Uniform, some of them were bad people, shooting. Just when I didn't like you, shoot you. Then, you got into the camp, he said he want to run away. I said, you did a good job, yeah.

Did you have occasion where any of the prisoners did run away?

Run away a couple, yeah, from my hometown, too. I don't know, some of them got caught, some of them. I think one is alive, I have no idea. You could go back, in the first camp, in the drawing in 1940, a doctor used to come to you, and I think they give the doctor something, or something was going on there. He said, you're sick, and they send you back. However they send you back, they put you in the ghetto, Lodz. You never survived, you know, some of them killed. So I was afraid to do those things. I said, either survive here. I was afraid they'd get rid of me. I tell them I'm sick, I want to go back home. I never went back, I never see my hometown since 1940, when I left.

As the year went by in 1940, did you have any communication still from your family?

I think a year, or a year and a half. Then my family got to the ghetto, they couldn't write. They were isolated already. So long they lived in a home, and also could use the same address. They didn't write. Soon they got in the ghetto with no communication. I didn't hear from them, so I see. I heard it's very bad. One of my brothers was in Poznan Stadion died from starvation. Poznan is a Polish-German city, mostly was spoken German, by the German border, they called Poznan in Polish Poznan. That was my brother the second after me. The youngest disappeared, I don't know where he is. My sister died from starvation in ghetto.

Was this ghetto in your hometown?

Lodz. It was in Lodz. Yeah, the main ghetto after was my hometown, because my neighbors, when I was there last year, they showed me, right in my neighborhood there. It was a windmill, windmill. You know, it was gone when I was there. My neighbors say, see there was your ghetto. I said, that's what I heard.

When you heard from your family while you were in camp, did they give you any indication of what conditions were like for them?

Well, they couldn't. I don't think that they could write too much, you know. I just, you know. See, I was a good son for my mother. Other friends, they wrote. It's terrible in drawing in the first camp. My mother said, how come you write down? It's not so bad. I says, I don't want you to worry about me. I survived, you know, like I said, I was doing a little business with the brothers. It was four months, four months there was civilians and everything. They come, they were half Germans, mostly German nationalities. They're living in Poland. They're called [unlcear] Polish. They spoke with the Polish accent a little bit, [unclear].

How were they treating you? How were they treating you?

Well, some of them were kind of a little mean. They treat me good, you know. I always worked a little bit. I was young, you know, and I talked to them in there. It was not so bad. They wouldn't kill you. So long not those big camps, you know, they wouldn't kill you. A lot of people died from starvation. You know, they just talked to him. I talked to him in a minute. He was dead.

What was a normal work week like? Did you work every day?

Well, we want to work, get out from the camp that day. We worked mostly every day, if I remember. I had a good job in Riga, in Latvia, where I met my wife, Emma Kaiserwald. I was unloading food. And I got in. They told me I'm a good worker. They picked, always looking for me. And other of my friends are loading bombs and ammunition. I was out, I was stealing and giving my friends. I got one thing with a hand. There was a wall there. And I got in my hand. I see it's honey. My friend licked my hand, so help me God.

Was this food that was being sent to the Germans?

The SS. The SS. Oh, yeah, yeah. And then sometimes I tied my things here and a hole in the pocket. I walked out, cigars and everything. I throw over to the ladies. That was my wife. She was not a wife that time. I just met her. It was a electric fence. We have a good insight with working the guards. You see him back in prison. And he was a good guard. He said, you can talk to the girls. And now they say, I'll shoot you here. Get away from it. Electric wires. you clutch it. I met my wife, Emma. Kaiserwald. Riga. I think it was a harbor city. Very modern. You know, capital. For Latvia The camp I think was 10 kilometers. Kaiserwald. Kaiser means a king. Wald. Forrest. They called. That's where they called.

Two interview with Mr. Ben Josin. Ben, we were talking about the work week that you had. You were working every day.

As far as I remember.

How many hours a day were you working?

Well, I think we used to go to work like 8 o'clock, got home about 5, roughly We got up about six usually, Appell, they had to count you and see you. Sometimes we stay in the rain for hours. Depends. Some people want to torture you and some not, you know. And they were mean to us, no question about it. And then we got home, we're tired sometimes we jumped on our, our, our, Preacher- what you call- the bunk beds and we slept, you know. And then we have to stay in the line to get the food. Sometimes they give you a little soup, two potatoes in it, and very, very, not much. And once in a while, when a horse broke a leg or something, the Lager came in and said, oh, we're going to help you out Juden horse meat. It was a holiday. And it tasted good. You know, you eat anything. The horse meat dog meat. Anything you can get a hold of, if you're hungry, you'll eat anything.

How did the diet start out? What did they give you in the morning?

In the morning, they give us, they give us a little coffee, I think. The coffee was terrible. You know, after you eat you had sand in mouth. It's not really coffee. It was just a, it's a result, was a, you know, they, I think what's left over from the coffee. I don't know what they call it. They call in Polish segoria. You had a little things and they cut it. You know, it was not really coffee. It was the, you know, the, I don't know how to explain it in English. The second grade or the different grade. Anyway, coffee, they wouldn't give it to you. They'd give it to the army. They give you this. And I think the bread, they'd give us 200 grams in the night. So you went to bed. So you had a little knife sometimes... it was so much, so we didn't want to eat- we were so hungry we cut a little slice we put away. We couldn't sleep. Yeah. Get another slice. We want to save for the next day. You know, we had to have a strong will. Oh, give me another piece. A very thin piece, if you know. So we put under the pillows and nobody would take away from you. Sometimes people were stealing, you know. And this was true, you know. And then we went, we had good places to work. We went to the farmers and they helped us. Lithuania, Latvia, you know.

Did you get anything to eat at noontime?

No, no, no. We worked all day. Mostly I think there was, some camps they give you a little soup in the morning and some other camps just a little coffee. And the bread you had it from... the bread they give you, I think when you had dinner, about five, six o'clock. Stay in the line for the soup and then they gave you, they call it pica bread, pica with rationing, you know, 200 grams, which is not much. And the bread was terrible, like straw inside, very dark, scent. And like I said, we cut a piece, we put away in another hour cut- you couldn't sleep, you were hungry it didn't let you sleep. Because we were supposed save the bread till next morning, it's like six o'clock at dinner, six or seven. Yeah, one night to the other one. This was bad.

How were sanitary conditions in your camps?

Well... dirty, you know you want a terrible word, lice. You know, you know what lice is, ever seen lice? They walked, they crawled on the walls, especially when I was- had the typhus. You swat the back you see the little orange in the forest. You've ever been in a forest by the trees, you see those little tiny, I don't know what you call it, same there, this dirt, lice, you know, you could take with a hand.

Did you have any toilet facilities in your barracks?

Are you kidding? Outside, outside. Some days you have to clean, you have to make it work then; outside, everything outside.

How about water for cleaning?

Water, I don't remember. I think we had to, there was a little thing, what you call a well, you had to go get your water, you know, some days from the river, you know. There was one camp in Palemonas back by Kaunas. We had to- there was a little ditch, and a little worms, what you call it, a little bucket. Take the water from there, just terrible. Oh. Smelled and sand, though you were thirsty you didn't have a choice. Some people, killed, you know, water, the bad food. This is the reason why I had typhus, I think, from dirt, you know, bad, very bad.

During the time you were in the camps in this area, did you have big seasonal changes in weather, cold weather, warm weather?

Oh yeah, winter, we worked in the winter in the first camp Sdroin . The snow was so high and the wall we couldn't see you inside, so there's no, couldn't see you out of it. You were covered up in snow. We got home to eat your dinner, I mean, after work you were all brown like you had been in the sun. The frost, I never knew the frost could make you brown, and you know, and then we had to work hard and some friends didn't want to work. I said, I'd rather working, otherwise you freeze your hands, your fingers, and yeah, cold.

Did you have any heat in the barracks?

We had a little, a little stove, you know, like a little wooden thing, a little stove, with the thing going out outside, you know what I mean, with the, with the, what 'cha call 'em?

The stack.

The stack, out there the chimney, and the foreman says bring, take, - we worked in a forest bring wood home, so we started a fire and also we want to boil water and put them on. When the SR, the Organisation Todt seeing this in the night, they have barracks right next to us. They see something comes out of the chimney, they come in, put water in it. They start screaming, 'Was machst du, er flucht' you know, beating our people. So, oh, yeah, it was rough. It was no fun, and we were young, I tell you. Now we wouldn't survive. We were young. The younger you are the longer you live, the older people went pretty fast, yeah.

What kind of clothing did you have during that time of year?

White stripes. They give you stripes, and a hat, you know, like in a jail, and I had a number here, you know, a flicklingnummer. Sometimes, they very seldom call you If they call you, they call you by the number. I didn't have nothing in my hand like they have in... like they have in Auschwitz or other camps, they never did this in our camp. Maybe I was lucky because I was not in Auschwitz, Birkenau, and those big camps, which Stutthof was a bad camp. There was, there was no good, no way, so at least you could survive somehow, you know, just, the sickness could have got me dead.

How long were in Stutthof?

I think a couple months, two or three months, Stutthof by Danzig.

Were you doing work there?

No, nothing. No work. They just, we sit around there, we sleep, workout, we just act goofy, you know, sitting there. We were, we wanted to go out and work, you know, out from there. You know, we, no, they didn't. Then they come and, couple guys come and they check and take out. See, when they take out big, strong guys, so you were safe. Then they take out just, they call Musselmann, guys scraping, you know, those people want to die. They pick good, the rest of good men, you know, we're going to work, to another, another place. They took us to Magdeburg, Magdeburg, by the river Elbe. There I got, run away from there and got liberated. So my cousins were strong and I was tall, to look kind of good. I was always hiding, madam says hey you come out, 'du kommst zu mir,' you know, and they put you on a boat, something, you know, Stutthof was by, by Atlantic Ocean.

During any of this time, did you hear anything about the progress of the war?

We couldn't, we had no, we couldn't, we couldn't hear that. We couldn't see- We didn't have no paper, no radio, no nothing. By the end, when I was in Magdeburg, by the end, you know, told a foreman- I worked in ammunition factory in the night. Magdeburg's a big city, you know, by the Elbe River. So biggest, those foremens were Nazis, very big Nazis, you know. He said to us, well, things are not going too good for us. So I said, so I told my friends, I spoke very good German, and my friends, and I was not afraid to talk to the- my friends were afraid to talk to the German. And I explained to them that they say it's not going good in the- American Panzers, they would say American tanks were in, and they moved back out, which for, like, you call it a panzer, they call it a four-post, they call it just like a, guy comes in, looks it out, said, well, it's not going good for us. He started talking, he would never talk to us before, kept us like, treat us like a dog. This was Magdeburg so. And then, this is the, the Americans didn't go any farther, the Americans were still there for a week or two weeks. They were killing the last minute, they were killing people. And then the SS says to us, we all have to go to Berlin, we're going to fight there. This time, and I don't want to wait, I think they shoot them on the way, and I run away, went into a farmer by Magdeburg. I told him my name is Jasinski, and I spoke Polish, and the farmer, he was part Poland once, Lusatia, speak Polish, and I worked on the farm, and with the, not with horses, what you call those big, Asian they call, you know, a mule, a mule. Yeah, and, yeah, and that, somehow, the Russian come in I got liberated.

How did they ship you from Stutthof to Magdeburg?

I went... by ship.

By ship?

Yeah.

When you got to Magdeburg, did you work for a specific company there?

No everything for the, the Luft, I think Luftwaffe, SS, but Air Force, SS, Air Force, SS. All right, we didn't know how, we didn't know who own it, just SS guard you until you go to work and work. Everything military, everything military.

How were you treated by the SS in Magdeburg?

Well, we didn't have much to do with them. They just, they were watching the camp outside the fence, and I don't have much, didn't have much to do with them, just eat then went to work, and like I said, I was stealing, on the ship, and I was giving my friends. said, I was stealing, on the ship, and I was giving my friends. Sometimes, I told my friends, you go take my, my food, my dinner, I don't want it, because I eat so much sweet stuff on the ship, and I was unloading.There were ships unloading in boxcar, you know.

Where were you when you were unloading the food?

In Magdeburg - No wait a minute, Riga.

In Riga? How long did you have that job?

In Riga? I think I was there, could have been there like a year or so. Riga went to Stutthof, Stutthof to Magdeburg.

When you were in Riga unloading this food-

From the ship yeah.

-was that your job all the time you were there?

Well, they can, they could give you any, everyday they could send you other places. The foreman, he knew me, you know, SS, he says you good for this job. Yeah.

So, you kept it for most of the time?

Most of the time, yeah. That was not so bad, because unloading food, you're eating. Cigars and everything, you know, the SS they're given the best food.

Were you able to bring any of this back to the barracks?

Yeah, I told you I brought back to the barracks and then when I see, when I know the guard, some guards, we know him already. See, the good guard I throw over to the ladies, bread in our barracks, also you got to be careful. Sometimes they'll search you. They made sure they wouldn't search me, you know why? Sometimes I share with them, I give the, those people watch me, I give them food, you know, I give them cigars, they put in his thing, and they let you through. But I didn't, you know. You had to be on the [unclear] to survive, you know. Otherwise, they'll search you. And you know who searched us? A Jewish guy. He was a, you know, he was a capo. You ever heard the word capo? C-A-P-O. They killed him, we killed him ourselves, they killed him, Danzig capo. You know, he searched you, and he was working under for the Germans. He thought the war would never- we had bad people between our people- the war would never end, he thought. He's not alive. We made sure he wouldn't be alive.

When you got to Magdeburg, were you still with your two cousins?

Wait a sec. Yeah. No, wait a minute. One cousin was there. I think so, yeah. I think so. We got liberated together, yeah, right after then, yeah.

And, can you tell me a little more about the work you did in Magdeburg?

In Magdeburg? We worked in the night, night shift from six, seven o'clock, until in the morning, make, big machines, ammunition. Every nine o'clock, the siren was on, and they says we're running to the bunkers were crazy. I think in the daytime when Americans, daytime, the English was bombing. Very destroyed, Magdeburg. It's a big city. I mean, in the night, the army, the army, the American, they call them, the armies are coming. So the foreman, the big shots at the time were trying to put the shoes on, because usually they had slippers on. Shoes on, they look on the time, nine o'clock, exactly nine, siren. They had bunkers underneath the factory and the SS would come on, come on. I says, we know where to go sometimes. We'd rather get killed from American then from you. Come on. They didn't let us, have to go to the bunkers. Then it took a half hour or so, then the siren is off and they go back out and work. So we worked all night, you know, we got used to it.

How were you treated while you were working in Magdeburg?

Well, if you do your job, you know, they were bitching sometimes. They wouldn't, not beating you up, you know. The foremans, they looked on you and this and you know, they didn't talk to you, you stay away. They gave you a machine and all those machines would make all kinds of parts. I don't know what that was for. They just told me to put this in the well. Big machine, everything ammunition.

And this was all underground?

The factory was, the bunker was underground. For the bomb- what you call, you know, full auto, you know, and this was not underground, you know, the factory.

Was the factory ever destroyed by the bombings?

No, no, they were, they through the, they shoot bombs right not far from our camp, [unclear] which, which we fell off, I fell off the bed once from the things hardly, you know.

How long were you in Magdeburg entirely?

Magdeburg, I was there to 43, probably to... that was 44. I was probably there a year or over quite a long time. They were, til the Americans come in and I was running away to a farm. Got in on a big, big farm.

Can you tell me about when you, how you escaped from Magdeburg?

I just went down with a bunch of guys and said, let's get the hell out from here. So, you know, a couple German Jews, Jewish people, you know, got in there. And there were Ukrainian people, Polish people, men and women. And I said to the guys, better don't talk Jewish to me. Talk Polish or German- oh no German either, Polish because they're Polacks. So, and, you know, I went to sleep once and those Polacks got drunk there. They had a P. There were, there was no guards or nothing. Well, you know, they, they wear a P, Polish, Polish people, they took into labor work too, you know, not Jews. I says, so the Polack wokes me up one in the night, was drunk. He said, his name was Yusef, Joe, they call Yusef boy. Says to me, you know, Ben, I think these friends, these people work with you. I think the Jews to me, I says, I don't know, you think so? Yeah. I says, whatever they are, I don't say nothing because the Russian gonna, he said, he says to me, no, don't, don't turn him in. He says, that was me to turn in. I said, you're right. No, we don't want to turn him in. The Russians are near here. And then they know how to speak Russian. And they didn't bother them. About two weeks later, Russian come in. Yeah. So I told her the guy was in charge of the, of the big, what you call, farm, we call in German a [unclear]. So I says, I don't want to tell you that I'm Jewish. Says to me, I know about it. I didn't know if you know or not, I'm trying to save you. That's what he says. I'm not sure. He had a son, an SS, SS. So before the Russian come in, or the son would see this, the son is in, in, throw the uniform away you're a civilian, you know.

Was he back on the farm, the son?

Well, it's right when the Russian come in, you know, there's, it just was a mishmash, you know. And then, and then I remember they had some, they made their home, a brewery where they not show the Russian. There's a brewery that put sticks in it, and they found the booze, and they were drinking, and they, you know, you know how it is Russian men. And I was trying to get out and see if my, I just want to go home and see my family's alive.

How long were you on this farm before the Russians arrived?

Well, it was several weeks, you know, before I got liberated, before the Russian come in.

What, did the farmer treat you pretty well?

Oh, yeah. I ate and he even gave me money, paid. I was like a mensch, you know. I told him I'm Polish, Jasinski is a Polish name. And I looked, I didn't know, when I was young I didn't look Jewish, you know.

Was your cousin or cousins with you still at this time?

Cousins didn't, no, didn't run away with me. I met him there later on, you know. I don't think so. I don't know. It was another guy. I don't think they were with me. I was with another group I think we were 10 people, German, Jews, French, different kinds of nationality, Hungarian. Well, we got along, and I told him, you do whatever you want. I speak for you. Don't say nothing, because I speak Polish. You know, somehow we survive.

Can you tell me what things were like when the Russians arrived?

Russian come in, you know, because most of the time they're drunk you know, 'Я освободил тебя' I got you liberated. You can go home, or you watch it, because there's partisan German in the forest. Are you from Poland? Polack, yeah. So I took a horse and buggy. I got in in the house. The Germans all ran away, I got new clothes, because I get rid of my stripe uniform those, you know, what happened. You've seen those things in the camp? Yeah. And then I come in there's the Russian patrol, Russian, hold a minute, give me the horse and give me... Now, 'командор,' you have to go to the commander. He wants to know who you are. They were looking for Ukrainian people. Some of them fought against them. They joined the German army. He said, then they gave us food, and we were in a stable were I was sleeping, Nice place, because they would put hay in, straw, some other, farmer. They give you food the Russians, and then he says to me, he says to us, there was a bunch other people there that called him some place. They never gave you a horse back, because I thought we have a horse and buggy, go back to hometown. I says, we give it to you sometime when we catch you, big bluffers, everybody knows. And he says, they sent a guy with a thing, you know, had a, what you call, you know, what you call, the thing would shoot; patrol you know, he had a...

Rifle?

A rifle, you know, mixed up, a rifle. One guy, he said, let's go, take you, take you all. So he took us, he took us out, way out, away from the city, on a wide street that connect things, and all of a sudden he disappeared, left us alone. We walked, we walked. Until we came to Frankfurt der Oder, that's what started, this was Germany once they start Poland. Poland took more territory away from the Germans. And there was a train, you know, I had a bike, somehow I found a bike, I took away from a German on the road. So the Polish army said, we gonna need the bikes ourselves. We're go fight Japan. And put us on a train, cattle train again, because everything was smashed. It was everything with, you know, burning, the forest, railroad track, everything on fire. And went back to, you know, trying to get back to my hometown.

How long did it take you to get back to your hometown?

Well, take us, we stopped in the city, probably close to a week, trying to get food, and this, you know.

Were you with anybody at this time?

We had, we were 10 friends, the same friends what we survived.

That came from the same town?

Yeah. Then we somehow, our cousin, both cousin, we found them and went walking there, running, we found them too, and then we got united, because they were from the same town. One cousin lived right across the street from my house, you know. And then, you know, and then my wife came, you know, because I met her in Riga. She was not my wife. I got married afterwards. I was liberated, we were living 10 boys together, we got into the to the Burgermeister, that means the mayor. They gave us food. He knows my, he knew my mother. They gave us food. It's a small town where everybody knows each other. Small town, they give us furni- He said there was a warehouse full of furniture. It was Jewish furniture they took away, "take whatever you want. Go pick up any place you want to live, you live any place you want.'

When you returned to your town, had it been destroyed?

My town was not destroyed. Just the synagogue and some churches, you know. No not destroyed.

This group that you were with, the 10 people.

10 people yeah.

Were there any other Jewish people that you found when you returned?

No, mostly dead. And then the cousin we found him on the way running home too. The two cousins we got united with them.

How long did you remain in the town?

In Ozorkow... two or three months, three months I ran back to Germany. You know, because I couldn't take it. Everything dead, and I didn't have anyone home to talk and, it was not too good for us.

How were you treated by the Poles?

Well, my neighbor says, 'You are still alive?' My mother, my mother babied them, my mother gurgled, used to, I don't know, you know what [unclear] is? Put in [unclear], you know, and Polacks were not good friends. Some people were nice, you know. So I was drinking and drunk with the Russian, you know. the Russian said "I got you liberated" because I was scared of him. Pulled a gun if you don't drink with him. If you don't drink with him, means that you don't like him. They were good. They went to Lodz, different city. They make me pay, because I was fighting for Poland, partisan. For a bottle of vodka, I could get anything. I think still now too.

At this time, did you start to understand or hear about what had taken place in Europe during that period?

Well, no. At this time we heard there was Auschwitz, and because before I couldn't, I didn't know. The Birkenau, we honest, we heard those camps. But you had papers there, you know. There was a Jewish committee in Lodz, big city that gave you bread and this. And they gave you the joint type, used to send in packages. Maybe a few bags and you know, you know. Somehow we survived. I didn't work, but I was very weak, you know. Very, very skinny. And from there, I decide, took a few guys. One is not alive. A couple not alive. We ran our way back to Czechoslovakia. That bordered Poland, Czechoslovakia, back to Germany, Bavaria. From there, 1949, came over here.

Tell me about how you met your wife.

I met my wife. It was interesting. I met her in Riga, in a camp. She was a good-looking girl. She worked for the SS in the kitchen. They picked up good-looking girls. She was a good worker. She had, had enough to eat, I think. And I was stealing on the ship, and I would send over to her and her girlfriends. We just talked to her and I told her what city I am. She was in Vilna, Vilna by Lithuania. That was Lithuania yet, back. That time it was Poland. Poland always had fights with the - Polacks and the Lithuanians didn't like each other. And when I was encamped at Lithuania, you know, she was from Vilna. And I told her I lived by Lodz in this city. She took a group of her girlfriends and they went to a Lodz, the big city. Everybody went to Lodz, big city because there was a committee. She joined, you know, to give everybody a few bucks I think, a few zlotys, they give 'em food. So they said, oh, they found my friends from just 10 people. We're going back and forth. Was in Stuttgart going from Ozorkow to Lodz. He said, "oh, Ben, Benny Jasinski is there," this and that. "Come on with us." She went with us, you know. And so, you know, there was another girl who living, cooked and washed fast. And whoever, I was the head man. I used to go bring food, rationing to the mayor they give me. And I was the head man. I said, somebody gets married or so, they move out, you know, they can move out. And that's the way it was. And then we decided to get married there with the Russians. The Russians gave me rings and everything. The soldiers very good. They liked us. Russian people are good people. It's just the government, you know. It's the people back, some other people, like the Americans good-hearted. And then the married, we was not married, not according to Jewish religion. Well, we went to Bamberg, Bamberg B-A-M-B-E-R-G, Bavaria. 50 kilometer from Nuremberg, where the Nazis were prosecuted. And I took in 10 of our friends. And there was a man, which his father, he lives in Los Angeles. His father gave me a [unclear]. That's how we got married. It's, it's according to Jewish religion. He had a man its good enough, there was no synagogues, no nothing. And then, you know, my wife came over here, you know, she had miscarriage in Germany.

When you were first married, were you married in Lodz?

No, in Ozerkow.

Ozerkow.

We went just to the office. You come in the system, there's no church. If you write your name in, you marry this wife and that's all. Go home. Like a civil, you know what I mean, my wife married Jewish in Bamberg, Bavaria. And I have a witness here. The son is here when I had a 50th wedding anniversary. He made a speech, he said my father married the the Josins His father passed away. We came from Russia, his name Beckard, yeah.

When you were in Ozerkow, when you returned after the war, were you able to find out about your family from any of the neighbors?

They just said they took them away, the Nazis. I didn't know that time that they went to Chelmno. Otherwise I would go that time, which I found out afterward, here in this country, Wiesenthal. I was honored. 1985, Israel bund honored me. I got a new world, new life award. I should have brought you I've got it at home I show you sometime, speeches, the kids. We have lunch sometime, I bring it to you. You know, and so they asked me. They come in, a lady from Jerusalem, sent to interview me in my office. Ben, I says, I don't know where my mother went. My sister died. And I find out, she. Yeah they went to Chelmno, they effects everything there. Mostly with the city, the neighborhood. And I was there, last year, Chelmno, the forest.

Reel three interview with Mr. Ben Josin. Ben you were telling me you were honored by the Israeli bonds. Can you tell me more about that?

Yeah, I was on it in 1985. Believe it was, was in June Anyway tells you that June Which I was I didn't want it. My kid says it's a good honor and you know, I did it, I do everything for my kids I told them the story how I got here, in the, landed in Boston 1949 a few days before Yom Kippur in the in the Jewish committee or the joint give me five dollars give Emma five dollars. He says after and there was a nice guy in the I don't know his name I wish I know in Boston that was in the kosher restaurants, say eat whatever you want It's on me, you know in. . . It was there I went to synagogue and you know, we eat fish everything like a Jewish man eats for Shabbos, or Yuntif. And after most the Yuntif, after Yom Kippur I said you're gonna take it to the train you're going to Omaha, Nebraska. So I had five dollars and Emma five dollars. On a plane so I was sit on the, I'm sorry on the train. I'm sitting a man again Terry cannot forget his... in the in the waiter comes in I think they were serving food. I looked at my right five dollars. I was afraid to spend my last five dollars now, I don't know how to talk to him. I don't know what to order. So it's a Jewish boy a nice handsome man says to me, 'רעדן יידיש,' a little bit Jewish. I said, yeah, we spoke a litt- I think he was from Los Angeles. What you want to eat, what..., I says sandwich anyone, drink I'm thirsty. I say I don't have too much money. Don't worry, paid for us.

Tell me when you-

Then we came to Omaha.

Well before that Ben when you, left Ozorkow you went to where you went to Germany then?

The first camp?

No after when, after the war.

I ran away. I went to Czechoslovakia to Germany, Bavaria. Oh, yeah, first. Yeah Czechoslovakia, Poland Czechoslovakia have borders, Czechoslovakia Germany have borders. The Russians caught me It's big, big stories. They told me I'm a spy Russians were on the one side, there were Americans in Czechoslovakia by Pilzno. They have people know, and they was Russians. Americans let you through very easy. And the Russians, I didn't, pass he wants a pass. He wants to see a pass so I showed him my paper from the, I was getting rationing. He said no, no, no, it's no good. There's no печать, I mean, there's a stamp has to be from the Russian. The American I showed the same paper and say okay let you through. Just, the Russian I couldn't paper. . . The flashlight, first time I saw the American soldiers, Czechoslovakia.

What did the Russians-

On the train, they stopped the train, the border, they come up and they check you out.

What did the Russians do to you?

Send me back, [unclear], send me back to Prague. Capital of Czechoslovakia, Prague. Peoples laying there very bad on the on the on the cement sleeping there was a was a... sent everybody like a camp there. Not enough food, no food, the Czech didn't have much to give you. The joint trying to help you over. . . You never, I happened to have a friend there from- He was in camp with me, his wife was not Jewish. He was in camp with me. Eddie Sinner I think he was named, get us. . . He always told me he had a business, he had a big restaurant with a hotel. So what he told me what it is and I found him. So he come down right away, they called him up says there's a guy was in camp with you. He kept, his wife was there, this reason he got back. He got the business back, in- so I said- he says to me: I tell you what I can do here, I'll give you American cigarettes or this you can buy anything. So they go in the restaurant. He says [unclear] I said [unclear] potatoes and soup. He says [unclear] rationing. I say "no, mam papierosy, Amerykańskie papierosy." American cigarette, he grabbed it from me and gave me food. It helped me, then I said to, "hey guys, there's no future. We have to take our women with laying on the floor sleeping,' Oh bad, you know, I ran away and the Russian caught me once, then back to Prague. Next night I took off again another border and went through somehow, went to Bavaria. The first city, they were a state Bamberg over time til 19...

Were you with your wife?

That time was my wife, yeah, a married, You know, I wasn't married Jewish, I was a married by the Russians and then I went to Bamberg got married there for the Jewish religion Jewish law.

Were you in a displaced persons camp?

No, they want to give me a displace, a DP camp I said no to the German you go in there, I was five years in it. Well, "ich glauben schon." glauben I I I believe you as he says to me. I tell you what we can do, we find a place when there was a Nazi. He has other rooms. We give you a room. I said, that's fine. He give me a nice room on the Kunigund- Kunigundendamm Strassen, neun­und­vierzig (49), see what I mean. By the water and ice Bamberg was never bombed. There was a... churches, katholisch, Catholic. Hitler didn't like to go to Bamberg, Nuremburg was bombed, Nuremburg where Hitler went. Nuremburg make a gazette, Nuremburg you ordered, everything in from Nuremburg. They where they hang, they put the Nazi to die, you know.

So in Bamberg, you know, we live good, you know in I still want to go to United States. I went to the joint, Joint Distribution. I tell you who was a guy- you ever know Gerszater? Well, he was a old man work for the railroad and his son was a, he was in Steinfurt, he was a, he was a like a not the consul. He represented the The Joint Distribution. I thought maybe you know him. No, kind of dark hair, so I went through you know him and they went to the American consul you swear and they ask why you are coming, where are you going? Omaha, Nebraska and I got papers here, the Joint they sent, send me papers, sponsored me as a farmer, then my wife cried. sent, send me papers, sponsored me as a farmer, then my wife cried. I said farmer how can we work on a farm and everything? farmer how can we work on a farm and everything? They said don't worry if you, soon you get to United State, soon you get off the ship you can go any place you want here, so long you don't go to the government for any food stamp like they have now cause you had to be a citizen, never took a penny from the government.

So I was here eight days. Somebody's supposed to pick us up from the depot down 10th Street there. Mrs. Newman, you ever know Newman the real estate, you ever knew her? She overslept, she says, she was a real estate. Juli- rather was Julius Newman, I believe right? She was a big woman in real estate. Anyway, I know my wife was sad. We couldn't speak. We stay like two idiots on the on the depot. So some cops walked out and somebody, I said No Speaking English. I showed them a paper. So they called Varat, you remember Varat? So they called Varat, you remember Varat? They called Varat, I, he says to talk to him I understood a little bit of English because there were GIs there and put him in a cab put us in a cab back to Jewish meet center. So they found us a place. they found us a place. I think first I lived there, by the center there in the back there, on 28th and Dodge. Then I find a place, his name was Aaron Shapiro on 36th. I just talked to people there I showed him where I lived at, 36th and Leavenworth right in the corner. He had a bar, Maury Shapiro you know of him? They know me. Oh, he was good to me. He brought beer and then he says, "What's mine - He was a widower - what's mine is yours." I said Mr. Shapiro I cannot drink this, you drink it, want money I give you money. He was you know, he was a tough guy Aaron, you know, he died many years you know his wife passed away many years.

And then I was here, I don't know four years or so, I bought a house with a partner. I worked hard had one job worked in a upholstery shop for American Upholstery, Fox's owned it. You know night, I was making thirty dollars a week and Emma was my wife thirty dollars a week. So we probably saved up forty or fifty, ten dollard we bought groceries, or ten dollars that time. We used to buy groceries from Perlman at 36th he had a grocery store, you know, Bob Perlman parents I think was Ben Perlman a father right, you know and, and then I learned English, you know, I learned much I just had to learn to become a citizen. I like this country.

What kind of work were you doing in the upholstery business?

Well in the beginning upholstery, in the beginning I was unloading car this I want to learn the trade. Oh, they gave me a hard time not to to know too much and somehow I learned which I still don't know I was I still don't know the trade. I had made a good living. I start my own business still. I don't know the trade too good. I know the principles of it. I hired I was working in the daytime I was working for still in a factory, American Upholstery, there upholstering, and I, we bought a property on Cuming St. Upholstery, there upholstering, and I, we bought a property on Cuming St. This is second property. My wife put a ad in the paper. My wife is very handy She cut and sew and I was working on the on the job because I was afraid to quit the job had one job. And my wife put a ad in the paper, my wife was taking the calls. They said, where's your husband? they said, where's your husband? Oh He's out on calls. So people said no, it'll have to be a shame I know he work, does it part-time people like if you do part-time you cheap it. I was cheap and I just learned picked up then I hired the same guys. I worked with them Polish guys. We're American but they Polish, Czech. They come down to help me sometimes. I don't want no money from you Benny. I said no, no, no, I want to pay you. Then I hired one man. I had nicely shop I worked for every general on the base, Bellevue as customers. I good mechanic, good upholstery. My wife worked with me right next with me you know, my wife is you know, she knows better than I do in sewing and this. She's very handy. Then we had a child Harvey you know because I want to have a roof over my head and I want to raise kids, you know, I bought a house and land contract with a partner the guys in town single man, Taylor, you know who he is and I met him in Germany. Anyway, and I he paid in 1500 and I paid in 1500 then I took a second mortgage I told Mr. Liafat, he talked to H. A. Wharf, H. J. Wharf you know him little guy Frank with the you know, Frank or two. He have a good cup He married his daughter was a Steinberg right? That's right. Nice lady I did a posting with him too and then [unclear] says my wife, she's German come over here to be here five years or less to bring a wife over bring over and I paid them off. So I had to take a second mortgage. $1,500. I paid him off.

And then you got your own business going?

I got the business on Cuming Street, you know I rent this house out and I bought on the 4601 I live the house, I bought two properties So the woman says well, you were just got over here. How are you gonna pay for it? So I said Mrs. Galihan the name was Galihan her son was a big shot. Oh, Mrs. Galihan, you want to know my credit call up Mr. Pratt, bought the first house 312 North 28th Street You know So Fred told him you take those people better than the bank. They're paying in advance They bought on land contracts. When I bought the house in that first house, Mr. Pratt was 312 North 28th Street. There was a grocery store right in 28th and Davenport in Chicago interstate you know, so I I didn't know much English, but I know how to tell the lawyer what to do I says because I don't want too high of a payment, you know I paid to the owner had a little book, land contract, they put in, and I had an apartment upstairs forgot to tell you apartment paid fifty five dollars. They put in in a contract to pay him sixty five dollars or more. He says pretty smart as it I'd like to pay into it. I want to pay up soon so we put in 65 or more. I was working in the side doing this making money. So I walked so I walked from my place on 312 North 28 to what is it 40, Lafayette, 36 and Lafayette where the hospital was Pratt lives there right. It was a little church. There was a water fountain, I remember to the right Press live there. He was a farmer from Iowa. They don't know kids, he wanted interest and so I'd give him I said Oh, you got 65. I walked in I said no Mr. Pratt. I got 200 dollars. Oh my god, you privilege I said I got to take it because it was in the contract 65 or more. The lawyer said my god, you don't have much school though you pretty good brains. Otherwise, he wouldn't take it. He wanted interest, you know, and then she told him, Mrs. Galihan, those people don't worry about it. She sold that, she called up, you've got the property. I paid sixteen or seventeen thousand as a board property, with a tenant upstairs who own a posting shop. They made the payments mostly and they was written out of which college Creighton boys were there. It's not far to Creighton to Lincoln Boulevard. You know always rent it out and then the interstate come in. Took away and they pay me. I lived for nothing years and you know, I struggled my wife was sick. My wife had four miscarriage, probably. Weak from the you know, from the house, from the camps and I was not a, weak to I walked to work, I walked. so... Old man Foxy, you green horn, you lose, you're tearing up shoes more. I said I hate to give the guy a quarter bus driver, cab driver - that's not the point, you know when I worked out there on 28 Avenue I worked there were Sears was, remember Sears on Douglas Street there with the bus stop, bus was full. So I started walking, about half, half way to the work, I said [Unclear] And I was skinny and I worked hard on piece or something I got, when I get home from work sometimes so my wife my wife was working too so she said let me prepare, you know potatoes and soup. That's all we eat, and cabbage and I like this way. You know, so I said, let me take a little nap. But she woke me up a couple hours later and I was, you know I just slept over it I was so tired. I said no let me sleep. Slept til the next day in the morning. We didn't have no air conditioning I slept on the floor or sometime was hot. Then I went to Sears and Roebuck, bought an air condition.

Now you have a wholesale fabric business?

Now I have a wholesale fabric business.

And how many people are working for you?

Oh, I have about 10 people.

And do you ship around the country?

We ship all over yeah, ship all over yeah, we... We had once a contract from the, US government.

How many children do you have Ben?

I have Harvey and Sherry, two kids, boy and a girl.

And your Harvey is with you in the business?

Harvey's in the business. Harvey takes over.

And how about Sherry, where is she?

Sherry lives in Dallas and married I have three grandchildren, that were here not too long ago.

Ben if you could make one statement-

Yeah.

-based upon the experiences that you've lived through in your life.

Yeah.

To your children and grandchildren, what would that statement be?

Well, I usually I usually tell them, I tell my kids how better I live in the. . . You know, they should work. They should save tell my son. I said this is the best country in the world. This is country of opportunity. You know and save and work like I do and you know be nice kids. Care for your parents, speak, you know, good grandchildren and good children, which my kids are good, you know You know, I raised them right and as far as I know they're polite nice to people. You know and see and I and I told him whatever I have I I'm so happy. I I thank God I . . . People taking for granted here, you know, I'm proud of that whatever I accomplished I thought I would never make it. I made it. I had a friend once. He was a Baptist. He was trying to teach me how to drive in Omaha. Christianson was his name, you know. And he was, I don't know he always talked about religion. He was- I don't know what you call those people. He wants me to come to meetings I say no, I like my Jewish religion I paid a big price to be a Jew. Oh I'm not trying to convert you and his wife was a she teach at the Baptist school on Park Avenue. When my wife had a miscarriage. We had a little baby or something. They took care of the baby. I want to pay them they say no God will pay me for it. So he came in once, they send him to New York. They sent him, you know, he goes in to preaches people, you know, I don't know if he got where to go, he said to my girl I said I thought this guy will never make it, Talking about a business he got, so God was good to me.

Well, Ben, I want to thank you in behalf of this foundation for allowing us to come in and bring back some very unpleasant memories, but to just to recollect your past.

I tell you it's very nice of you, you doing this you have a mitzvah. And I appreciate very much you and Mike. You're nice people and I have, it was, was not hard for me I thought it was a hard thing I've gotten very emotional, especially as I talked about my parents.

Well thank you very much Ben.

Ben, can you introduce your son to us?

Yeah, this is Harvey Josin, 45 years old my oldest son.

And he's in business with you-

He work. He in business with me, he's a good boy, sometimes. And you know eventually-

I'm your only son, not your oldest son.

The best son, the only son, and he's taking over the business slowly, his business gonna be his eventually. And he's trying to do a good job. They're good kids him and his sister. We cannot complain.

Harvey growing up being the child of a survivor, of survivors, what kind of growing up did you have?

Well, it was obviously they starting a new life and everything we were spoiled pretty good. We were doted on and we were obviously we were the the new beginning the new start for them and that was very much evident. I think my sister and I felt that we were absolutely the stars and we were shining bright and in not only do we recognize that we we recognize the lack of family. I mean we we have no family.

Yeah.

I don't know what an aunt is an uncle grandparent.

Tell him, he ask me once, Thanksgiving, was a little kid, then says where is my grandparents?

and when we talked to other peers they say well We're gonna celebrate this with grandparents and aunts and uncles. It was like a blind man who's never seen. We didn't know what these things were and all we'd hear about from time to time from our parents was you know, we'd see at certain times their sadness because they both grew up in large families and there was nobody left and that put a quite a you know, that was quite an influence on my sister and I knowing that there was no family around so it was difficult, by the same token we were definitely the focal points of the family, you know, we were pushed to survive, we were pushed to succeed. I think a lot of children of survivors probably have a little bit more, we'll give a little more impetus from their, from their parents because the parents wanted them to have the best of everything and to start this new life. Pushed them, you know be a doctor or be a lawyer or be successful in business. I think you'll see that as a common thread with children of survivors basically.

Did you take this trip with your parents?

Yes I did.

Could you tell me about that, a little bit?

It was very interesting-

How it Impacted you?

Oh, well as we'd heard the stories of throughout the years, of course and to see it first hand I have to say he's very accurate and his recollection was was terrific. He took us to this small town in Poland he said drive down this street drive down that street. There it is that's where I lived and he took us right upstairs and and it was then he explained this little I Think well, how many people five people lived in this room about the size of this office? That was their home. Everything was there that they slept in the kitchen because that's where the hear was.

Yeah.

Six people?

Three boys in one bed. Sometimes he would knocking with feet's in my teeth.

It was incredible, there was a very touching moment.

It was an attic apartment, you ever seen, not straight. apartments still there, one thing they fixed, the stairway they fixed. Was wiggling, I used to fall down thens. Solid now they fixed the stairway. Otherwise looks the same thing, worse. We came on time otherwise, it would be condemned they told us, ask him.

Yeah, it's probably torn down now.

Torn down now.

it was, was, just been ready, so our visit was timely and yeah a very touching moment. We walked across the street and and some neighbors, obviously there was some commotion going on. They saw this American van. Who what we'd rented drive into town and so everyone kind of it's a small town and people knew when something was up and we walked across the street and there's a couple of neighborhood people came out and one yelled to my dad "Ben" recognized him. They must have been childhood Friends or acquaintances.

Acquaintances, she lived down the road.

And my sister and I kind of broke down there was, it was almost unbelievable that this, this occurred what 50 years she knew who he was She knew he moved to America and had done very well and all this and we were just you know We were astounded. You did, you did the best then you cousins, everybody you're better off. You know Americans I'm sure I'm better off. Well your cousins all over there are dead, so yeah I think your better off. They were alive. But um, that was a very touching moment for my sister-

Had to be a lasting memory for you, was it?

Oh absolutley.

I did it because of them, I didn't want to go they had to force me, he and my son-in-law too, my son-in-law was so happy and my daughter went to Auschwitz, Yeah.

The burial ground of his mother was very touching as well. And we found another local gentleman who was a young boy at the time and told us of the of the cars and just pushing people into an open pit and shooting them, and covering them, gassing them.

This was in Chelmno?

Chelmno, in Chelmno.

And, there was just this open field with a star David in the field and at the burial ground And that was very very very touching and um-

Going after the sham, there must be a Chelmno, there is Stutthof, there is everything.

He held up pretty well I don't think I could have done that well in those circumstances Except at that point where he was like putting a closure on his mother's death which he really never knew where his mother was buried or and this was a for the most part, you know, it was a tough thing for all of us, but I think it was good I think it was a good closure element for the whole thing. So It was an emotional two days, you know, we spent two days there it was very emotional and . . .

It was a couple of days.

It was it was an interesting and we went to Krakow in fact and we saw Schindler's Factory. Just by happen chance someone said that's where Schindler still operating and we went to this little tiny little cafe and there's Steven Spielberg and Kingsley and all the pictures are on the wall. Apparently the crew had eaten most of their meals there And they had written to the proprietors, you know, thanks for making our stay here so, so wonderful. So that was kind of a brought things back to more of a realistic perspective of what was going on, you know, the whole connection and It was very I'm very glad that, we have a lengthy tape on it as well, but we're very glad we did it and i'm glad dad for years said he never wanted to do this and then I'm glad that he wanted he finally did it.

Didn't want to face it. Memory comes back, did it for the kids I'm happy I did it. I'm happy cannot be too stubborn Yeah.

Well, Harvey I want to thank you for participating in this interview.

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Thank you very much, you're doing a good job for us.

Thank you.

Yeah thank you, you too Mike. Thank you very much.