Elmer Pressman Shoah Foundation Testimony

The date is May 12, 1998. The survivor or liberator is Elmer Pressman. The interviewer is Kenneth Aran.The interview is taking place in Mansfield Center in the United States, and it will be conducted in English.

The date is May 12, 1998. The date is May 12, 1998. The liberator in this case is Mr. Elmer Pressman. The interviewer is Kenneth Aran. The interview is being held in Mansfield Center in the United States, and it will be conducted in English. Good morning. Would you please state and spell your name for us?

Yes, it's Elmer Pressman. That's spelled E-L-M-E-R-P-R-E-S-S-M-A-N.

And what was your date of birth?

April 9, 1914.

And in what city were you born?

That's a good question. I think it was Bridgeport.

And what were the names of your parents?

Celia was my mother, and Benjamin was the father.

Did you have any brothers and sisters?

Yes, Paul, Brother Paul. And the sister, let's see... I - I'm trying to think of her name, but she's got a catchy name, Linda.

Okay, and what was your father's occupation?

They were in the junk business.

And did your mother work also, or was she mostly at home?

No, she never worked. She was always at home.

Going back to your childhood, could you remember what the first memories that you can bring up as to your early childhood with your parents?

Well, yes, I remember that, for instance, in my father's case, they had a place in Bridgeport not too far from where we lived, where they maintained the junk business. And occasionally, I used to go down there, see, and go through the books. They had the old magazines and the comic books and so on, and I used to look at them and all that, and then I used to go home again, see.

Do you have a picture in your mind about what the place looked like?

What the place looked like, yes. It was an average, what you call an average junk setup, you know, mostly with different kinds of papers and things like that there and there that they would get from the different stores and so on.

Apart from reading comic books or enjoying yourself there, did you ever help your father in his business?

Sometimes. Sometimes. When I got a little older, I would, yeah.

And do you have a memory of your elementary school days at all?

Yes, I do. The school was very close to the house. It took us about two minutes to get to school, and we were there during the duration of that school.

What are the strongest memories that you have about your early school days?

About the school, nice teachers, good teachers, and it was a different kind of a life then, then it is today. No guns, nothing like that, never heard of it, and that's the way it went.

Did you have any favorite subjects in school?

Favorite subjects.Well we didn't have languages at that time in school, but I liked, let's see, I'm trying to remember what I did like a long time ago. I like subjects about individuals, where you have, you studied about a certain individual who had done something outstanding, you know, things of that side.

Do you remember your high school days at all?

Yes, yes.

What do you remember about them?

The thing I remembered were language classes. I was very, very interested in languages, and as a matter of fact, the army here had asked me if I could learn German, and I said, yes, you give me three months and I'll learn German, and then you can send me to Germany. So they looked at me, and I said, yes, I'm not kidding, this is it. So they did. They gave me three months, and I went to Germany, as you know.

Had you taken German or any other languages in high school before that time?

Oh, like Latin. I took Latin, which was a so-called tough language, but you know, it wasn't that tough. If you studied a little bit, it wasn't tough, you know, one of those things.

You've remembered your father's place of work. Do you also have a visual memory of the home that you lived in?

Yes.

Tell us a little about it.

It was a, in those days, it was an average two-family type home, and you know, you had your family on one floor, my grandparents used to live on the other floor, and that's about the way it was.

Was the home a modern home by the standards of those days?

In the early days, yes, I would say yes, and then, of course, and after time went by, it began to change, and you began to see new models and so on.

Do you remember the street that you lived on?

The street? Yeah, Whitney Avenue.

And what kind of a street was it? Commercial, residential?

No, no, no, no, it was residential, residential homes, yeah.

Do you remember playing with your friends in the neighborhood?

Yes, yes, after school, mostly after school.

What do you recall about the kind of games that you played with them?

Oh, the kind of games, play baseball, and in the winter, sometimes you'd play football, you know, in the fall, things of that type. Sometimes if you went down to the park, you might try tennis, you know, something like that, but that's about the way it went.

How would you describe the neighborhood in which you lived?

It was very nice, very nice, people were nice, everybody worked, you know, and so you didn't see them almost during the course of the week. On the weekend, you used to see people, they were home, but it was very nice.

How would you describe the demographic makeup of the neighborhood? What were the ethnic backgrounds of the people there?

The ethnic backgrounds, well, that's kind of hard to describe. You had Jewish families, you had Irish families, and you had a mixture of other families, but I think those two were more prominent than the, than the others.

Did you have a feeling at the time as to how well, let's say, the Jewish families got along with the non-Jewish neighbors?

Well, I don't believe there was any problem at that time. Everybody was so busy that there was no, and people were friendly. We never had a problem that I can recall. People were very friendly at that time. You know, everybody knew they worked, they had a work, and that was it, you know, and they got along.

Did you have non-Jewish friends as well as Jewish friends?

Yes, yes. In school, I did, yes.

Did you ever have them come over to your house and visit with you?

Well, once in a while, they would stop by if they wanted to play ball or something. They would stop to see if I would be willing to, you know, play ball with them.

How would you describe the religious upbringing that you had in your family?

The religious what?

Upbringing.

Religious upbringing was good. The upbringing was good. We went to Hebrew school, and the whole family did. My sisters and people at home all went to synagogue. They went to services very often on the weekend, and so it, you know, was just a steady matter like that.

Was religion a very important factor for your mother and father?

Yes, yes. They had come from Europe, and of course in Europe, it was tough at those times, and they came here, and they had the freedom that you had in this country, so they was very interested in religion, especially that the children should get it.

Do you remember how you celebrated Jewish holidays in your home?

Well, when you say in the home, of course, we went to services, and then when we came home, then we had a holiday meal of a type, you know, and it was pretty much along that line.

Did your family go to the synagogue every Sabbath?

No, I can't say that, because they were busy at times, and they couldn't go every Sabbath. I didn't go either every Sabbath, but I tried to go as often as I could.

Do you recall how you celebrated holidays such as Passover and Purim?

Oh, that was a, Passover was a very big holiday, you know, you ordered, you had your family come, your family from out of town would come and get together, and it was a big thing, a big thing. That took probably, the whole bit probably took two hours or so, you know, and the question used to be, how long will we be reading here before we can eat, you know, that used to be the question, they couldn't wait to eat, they had waited, sometimes we'd go until almost midnight, you know, until they got through reading, you know, so it got tough after a while.

Do you remember anything else about your reactions to the Seders besides the long wait for food?

No, not really, except that we tried to make everybody come early, so we could start earlier, we started earlier, we could finish with the service earlier, sometimes it was a problem, you had to wait.

You mentioned your grandparents living in the same,

That's right.

home that you had, did you have other extended family members living around that same neighborhood?

Well, we had an uncle and aunt living on the next street, they were the only ones that lived on the next street, over.

And when you graduated from high school, what did you do by way of work and occupation?

Well, when I graduated from high school, I went to work in Norwich, Connecticut, and I must tell you this, as long as you're asking me, Norwich, Connecticut, it was the time of the Depression, people were out of work, I worked for 60 hours a week, I made 20 cents an hour, and I got a check for 12 dollars for the week, and I often wonder what people would say today for something like that, but you were fortunate to have a job.

And in what field were you working?

In the grain business, grain business, they made feed for cows, for chickens, and so on.

What did the, I'm sorry, could you describe what your particular job was with respect to the grain feed company?

Well, in time, I worked in the mill for a little over two years, you know, with the feed, loading cars, unloading cars, and so on, and then we had, unfortunately, we had a fellow get sick, he couldn't work any longer, so they sent me out on his job to contact customers out in the field, farmers, that's who they were, farmers, so I got the job and from there I went up.

And what did you finally do after you went up?

Well, then I traveled way out into Massachusetts, New York State, and all over, all over, I was all over.

Now, you mentioned the depression years in which you were working. Around that same time, we have Hitler's coming to power in Europe, and the anti-Semitism going on in Europe now became a matter of general knowledge. Do you recall whether you and your family were involved or knowledgeable about what was happening to the Jews of Europe at that time?

Well, I think they were, yes, I certainly was, because I was in Norwich, Connecticut at that time, of course, we didn't have that problem right in Norwich, Connecticut, but I knew what was going on in the world, I kept track of it.

Did you have any relatives in Europe who were directly affected by the rise of Hitlerism?

Well, it was hard to say, yes, we did have relatives there at that time, but whether they were directly affected, I wouldn't be able to tell you.

Were your mother and father in touch with these relatives in Europe? Were they close?

At that time, no, no, no. Occasionally, you might get a letter, but you can't say that there was a correspondence, no, no.

Do you recall what your feelings were when the war in Europe finally broke out in 1939?

In 1939? Well, you felt bad about it because you're going to lose X number of people. And you were just hoping that something would happen that would, you know, make things go a lot faster and, you know, end once and for all, or come to some decision as to how to straighten the thing out.

Now, many people who lived through the attack on Pearl Harbor say that all their lives, they remember where they were, what they were doing when they first heard the news. Do you have any recollection of where you were or how you felt?

Well, no, I think I was working at that time, the attack on Pearl Harbor. I heard it that day, the attack on Pearl Harbor, and, of course, you feel bad about it. You know, it was a miserable thing to have done, but it's done. So you do the best thing you can to try to overcome that.

Now, you were serving in the Army.

That's right.

Did you enlist or were you drafted?

No, I enlisted.

What were your thoughts about why you enlisted instead of waiting to be drafted?

Well, I felt, well, as a matter of fact, my company wanted me to stay on, see. We were in the feed business, and they told me, as long as you're in the feed business, we need furnished cows and chickens and all that, you can be given a pass. And I said, no, it's time that, I want to go. I feel that, you know, it's going to take a long time. And so I went. I just went. When my time came, when my number came up, I went, that's all.

When you entered the Army, do you remember anything about your first induction and where you went and what you did?

No, I think it was down in Jersey. In New Jersey, at the, at one of the Army camps down there in New Jersey.

And where did you do your basic training?

It was, I think, in Massachusetts. Camp- was it Devens up there in Massachusetts? I think that's where I went, to Devens.

And when you finished basic training, were you sent for any further specialized training after that point?

At that point, no. No, we were just sent to another base, and I think then another base, you know. They were shooting you all over, you know, until you, they found a spot where they wanted you to be.

Do you remember the names of any of the bases that you were shipped to?

Well, there was a place out in Nebraska. It was an air base. See, not that I was involved with the airplanes, but it was out there. And I was out there about a year and a half. I was out there. And when I was involved a little bit with watching, when we go into town, for instance, they would tell us to watch. Now, there were a lot of spies out there. This is what they would tell you, a lot of spies out there. And we'd like to have you learn a language. And I said, what do you want me to learn, you know? And they would say, we'd like to have you learn German or Italian or something like that, so that when you go out there, you'll understand what these people are talking about. And then you can come back here and tell us what you heard. See? I used to wonder about that. Is it such a thing? as that going on? You know. But that's what it was about.

Was this open to anybody who wanted to volunteer for that sort of thing, or were you selected for that kind of training?

No. At that time, you didn't, you could volunteer if you wanted to. But at that time, I don't think I selected that right away. I wanted to see how that was going to work. For a while, it worked pretty good. And then later on, I took it up myself. I studied some German, and that seemed to help, too, because there were people at that time who were... See, this was an air base, and you had strangers coming in all the time outside the base. And whenever you went there, there was always this language going on. So if you got close enough to them, you could decipher some idea of what they were talking about and what they were planning to do.

Now, were you actually sent to classes to learn German as you would in school?

At that time, once in a great while, I wouldn't say there was a steady school of any kind. They gave you pamphlets of kind and they asked you to study and like that there. But it wasn't on a permanent basis.

So you're saying that you were just asked to do this on your own?

Yeah.

While you were continuing all your other duties as a soldier?

Well, yeah. It was part of your work, actually, your daily work, let's put it that way. You weren't being asked to do something at night or nothing like that. It was during the day, and they figured that X number of hours you would be doing something like that.

What were some of the other duties that you had as a soldier at the same time that

at the same time

you were learning this German?

Oh, well, actually, you didn't have too much time to be doing too much of something else. You were involved with that. It was an air base. At times, you had something to do near the base there. And so time was not available. You know, you just did what they asked you to do, and that was it.

Was there any formal recognition of the work that you were learning? For example, were you given an MOS number to indicate that you were proficient in German at that point?

Well, I personally wasn't given a number. Whether the Army listed that, that could have been something else, because they called me every once in a while, and they asked me to check on this one and check on that one, you know, because I had been learning a language and so on. So they wanted me to check. But to say that they actually gave me a paper saying I had graduated from the school and so on, no, nothing like that. This was very quiet with the Army.

How long did this training take place?

Well, I was at the air base for a year and a half, and then they started sending me around. From there I went to Texas, and I was at Texas for a while. And then the Army sent me to school, and I think it was at the Western, stayed out there out west. They sent me to school there for, oh, about three months we were at school. And we came back, and then they tested us, and the Army decided that they want me to go into language. So the Army then brought up the question about learning German, see, because this is what they were thinking about all the time, was German. German, so they asked me if I could learn German in three months. I said, sure.

Will you help me to understand this? Are you saying that you first went to school for training in another area, and then the Army suggested to you that you learn German?

No, no, no. Well, the Army did, yes, but I was learning German at the same time, actually, at that time. Not as strict as the Army would want you to learn, you know. But then the Army picked it up after we came back from school, and they said, we'd like to send you to school. We'd like to have you learn the language so that you can have it in three months. Can you do it? And so I said, yes, I can do it. This is what they asked you. Can you do it or not?

So was there another school at which you had a training in addition to what you had in the German?

No, I went to that one school, to the one school.

What happened with your Army career after you were finished with your learning German?

After, mean while, I was still in the Army? Well, so I went to Europe, and I was involved in Europe. They shifted me around constantly, you know. And part of it was for the fact that, you know, they wanted you to pick up on languages and so on. And they moved you around. You moved around here and there.And that's pretty much the way it went.

Do you remember approximately what season or month or time of the year that you were sent to Europe from the United States?

I would think it would have been, well, I can't tell you exactly, but it probably, if it was in the early months, it probably would have been somewhere around March, April, May, somewhere in there. If it had been the fall, it probably would have been around September, October, November, December.

And what year are you talking about now?

It's a good question. I'm not sure.

Well, the war ended in May of 1945.

45

Does that give you any frame of reference as to how long

How long I was over there?

before the war ended that you came there?

Well, I was probably there two or three years.

Do you remember when you entered the Army and when you were discharged?

Well, I was discharged, what was it? on the 16th. I came back on, was it April 16th?

Do you recall what year you went into the Army and what year you were discharged?

No, I, that was a long time ago. Along time ago.

Now, do you remember what your trip across the ocean was when you were sent to Europe?

What it was?

Yes. For example, were you sent over in a convoy? Do you have a recollection of what?

Yes, a convoy.

What do you remember about the trip?

Rough, it was a rough voyage. That was a rough voyage.

What made it rough?

The weather. Weather pattern, it was rough. And then they were worried about the fish in the water.

If it was a rough weather pattern, do you think that you might have made that journey in the wintertime or the very early spring or late fall?

Well, it could have been the fall. It could have been.

When you got to Europe, do you remember what the nature of your uniform was? That is, were you wearing a heavy overcoat? Were you wearing just an Eisenhower jacket?

No, it was a lighter jacket.

So then the chances are that it wasn't winter.

It couldn't have been. No, it wasn't winter.

All right, we'll now pause for a change of tapes.

All right.

This is tape number two in the interview with Mr. Elmer Pressman. In the last tape we were describing how you came across the ocean here. Do you remember which country you landed on first when you came to Europe?

I think it was France.

And what did you do there in France?

Nothing. We just kept going.

Do you remember where you went?

I think we went to Germany.

Directly into Germany.

Yeah.

What were your feelings the first time that you stepped onto German soil?

My feelings? Well, of course in those days when I went there at first, you had a very bad feeling as far as the Germans were concerned. The whole war you blamed on Germany. This was it. You blamed on Germany. And here we were losing Americans. So this is pretty much the way the average GI felt at that time. They blamed the Germans.

Do you remember what unit you were attached to when you came into Germany?

No, not really at that time because they were shifting around all the time. You never really knew how long you'd be in the unit. You could be in there for a week. You could be in there for a month. And then they would say, well, we have to get them over here. So it wasn't anything that was of a permanent nature.

Do you remember what corps of which you were a part of?

No, I don't. That didn't interest me too much at that time.

Now, when you were being moved here and there, do you have any specific duties that you were asked to do?

No, no, not really. Not really. They put you in different things. And you went and you did whatever you had to do and that was it. It wasn't until later on that you really, they put you into a certain job and you had the job. And if they were satisfied, then you stay there a while. But at first, no, it didn't work that.

And did the time come when you were put into a definite specific job?

Yes, they put me in as far as this business with getting back again to the Army and with the civilians coming over and all that kind of stuff and to get involved with languages and, you know, that kind of stuff. That I liked. I liked that. It gave you a job that you knew you would be in for a while, not to have them give you a job. And then a week later, they put you on something else. This way, you knew you had to stay there for two months, three months, until you learned and then they would send you out and you go here.

Did you feel that what you had learned in those three months of learning German help you materially in conversing with people and finding out what was going on in Germany?

Yes, definitely yes. Yes, there was no fooling. When I went to Germany, there was no way, and they knew it. They knew I had studied German and they realized that there was no point in them trying to fool me because they were only fooling themselves, that's all.

Would you have considered yourself as a bilingual person at that time?

Not really. I knew I could speak, you know, German, so that was one language. That was the language I had when I was in the service. And it helped. Of course, it helped a great deal. But aside from that, no, I didn't consider myself as bilingual. I could speak Hebrew, for instance. I could use the Hebrew language, but that was it. But I didn't step aside from German and try another language. I didn't have the time to do it, really.

Did you have a command of Yiddish at that time?

Yes. Yes, definitely.

Now, you mentioned before about a time came when you finally were put in a specific job. Let's come back to that again. What was the specific job that you were asked to do?

Now, this is in Europe?

Yes, when you were in Europe, when you were in Germany.

Well, the job was that this was it. When I went to Europe the last time, and there was a break in what had been going on, and the war was coming to an end. So, at that time, I called the army, and I told them, if the war ends, and the war was going to end, you knew it was going to end. It could end in a week. It could end in three days. When the war ends, I wanted to go to Nazi Germany, right off the bat. And the fellow says to me, who will answer the phone, he says, well, we'll call you tomorrow morning, and we'll let you know. Next morning, eight o'clock, he calls. He says, you're going to Nazi Germany. Just like that. That was perfect. That's where I wanted to go. So, I had the language, and I went to Germany.

You said that you called the army.

Yeah.

Now, you were in the army at this point.

I called the army. Of course, they were in Germany, too. They were just outside of Germany at that time, the fellows I wanted to reach.

So, in other words, you mean you called a certain officer or a certain...

That's right. Yeah. I'll tell you who I called. It was a fellow by the name of Silas E. Decker. He was a lieutenant colonel in the army. I called him. He knew me a little from having seen me before. And, of course, I knew him quite well. And I explained to him what I wanted to do. He said, I'll see what I can do. And, apparently, it worked out. Okay.

So, you got into Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany. Now, two questions. Number one, why were you interested in going into Nazi Germany?

Well, number one was what I wanted to see what the Germans had done. And this is what I found out. I found out what they had done.

That was the second question. What did you learn?

Unbelievable.

Tell us about it.

They did tricks that even animals wouldn't do. For instance, they took in children. Children, Four, five, six, seven, eight years of age. They would never give them food. And after they dropped dead, they would take them and put them in. They had large, round barrels there. They'd put them in there. Let them stay there, filled up those things, get another one, fill them up. When you came to a burial, which we did, when you had to bury anybody, all they had left were bones.

How did you know that the Nazis had done this? Were you a witness, eyewitness to this, or did you hear about this?

Well, I'll tell you how I found out. When I went into Germany, and I was watching four or five Germans working. They were digging a ditch or something. Then there was an old timer there, see. So he motions to me, and in German he says, come here, come here, come here, see. So I assumed he wanted to show me something. So I walked down the steps, and he took me just a short way, and he opened one of these large, you know, drums that I was telling you about. And there I saw. That's all it took. And he was German.

Was he engaged in any kind of a work detail with respect to the children?

Well, not really, no. He was like, you might say, he had worked already, and he was just walking around and, you know, getting some exercise. But he wanted to show me why I could never understand.

What did you do upon your learning about this particular harm?

Well, I figured that, number one, I wanted to take all that that had happened and bury them. Now give them a regular burial. So we had a, it took a little while to get this all formulated as to how you wanted it. I had to have 78 caskets made, 78, and I had to hire trucks and everything, you know, until we got enough to go to a cemetery. And it's a peculiar thing that in Nazi Germany, in Esslingen, I found a Jewish cemetery. It came as a shock to me, a Jewish cemetery. That's where I wanted to take them and to bury them. And this is what we did.

As an ordinary soldier, how were you able to get the trucks and the caskets made and the

Oh how could we get them

workers to do this?

Well you had to find people, who would be willing to do this for you. When the war ended, of course, you had people who had been maybe doing work for the German Army or so on, and they were looking for jobs, you know. And you try to find somebody who was good in his job. So you were able to get this. We had, as I say, we had 78 caskets on the truck, and we had trucks and God knows how much other stuff we sent to the cemetery.

Did you need any higher authorization in order to do the things that you were doing?

No. No. If I told them that this is what they had to do, this is what they had to do. The Army actually gave me full cause over what was happening, because they knew I was there, they knew I would take care of it, and this is true. I did.

Do you remember what your rank was at that time?

Well, I was a, I was a, I'm just trying to think of it, it skips me now.

You could have been a soldier or a NonCom. or an officer, which were you?

Yes. Well, in a sense, I was an officer, yeah. I forget the word for it. Maybe it'll come to me before we get through. Keep up.

Ok. With respect to this horror that you saw there, did you tell other people about it? For example, the higher ups, the other officers in your unit.

Did they know about it?

Yes. And did you tell, did you speak to other people about this?

I spoke to some of the, the higher, higher officers about that, yes. Not to the people in our unit, because we didn't have that many officers in the, in the unit.

Did you bring them over to show them what you had discovered?

They never came over, as far as I can recall. No. Just, I told you, just that one man that came over, I says.

Do you recall their reactions when you told them about what had happened?

Yes. Generally, it was, you know, they used certain epithets as to that, that something like that should happen.

Were there any other Jewish soldiers with whom you were friendly in your outfit?

Well, let me put it this way. There were some that we had in our group, but I never had the time to spend with people. Really, I didn't. Some days I'd be out until 11, 12 o'clock at night, and you're always on the go.

Now, before this initial experience, did you have any idea about what the Nazi government was doing to the Jews?

Did I have any idea? I certainly did. I read everything that came up. I knew, I knew, and I saw. That was it.

What were some of the other things you did in this post?

In this job?

Yeah.

Well, I'll tell you. The Nazis, let me give you this description. The Nazis set fire to a synagogue in Stuttgart, Germany. When the thing was burning, this fellow, who I had met, saw somebody come out of the synagogue there holding a very, very sizable package. And he disappeared in the darkness. It was 11 o'clock at night, so everything was dark. He disappeared. And he came back and told me what had happened. So immediately, when he told me, I felt that the size of the package and the fact that it was wrapped in a white sheet meant, in my mind, that it was a Torah. And he was taking it. He was going to do, he was either going to sell it or do something with it. So I says to the fellow who saw this man go away with it, I said, did you recognize this man? He says, no, I saw, I've seen the man, but I don't know, I don't know for sure what he does or anything about him. I says, where does he live? He says he lives in the Haigerloch. Where was Haigerloch? Where was Haigerloch? In the French zone of Germany. I mean, you know, when you cross zones, you've got to be very careful. I said, are you sure that he lives in the French zone? He says, yes, he lives in the French zone. He says, that I know. I said, okay, tomorrow morning, I will go to the French zone. Next morning early, I drive to the French zone. And I see this MP is directing traffic there, so I pulled up. And in German, I asked him if he knew of a man, a very tall man, and he goes around selling and buying stuff and all that there. He says, well, I can only think of one man, and he lives about two blocks down from here on the dirt road. I says, are you sure? And he says, yes, I'm pretty sure that's a description you're giving me. So, I went down there. And I went down, I went down to the last house. Luckily, went to the last house, I knocked on the door. And this, I knocked three times, I remember this, three times, nobody came the first two, the third time, a woman opens the door. And, of course, this was a German conversation then, of course, she was speaking German. And I asked her if her husband was home, and she says, no, he's not home. Will he be home soon? She says, I don't think so. Will he be home today? I don't know for sure. You know, very, very rough. So, finally, I stopped, and I said, and I mentioned her name, I said, I'm a rabbi. And you can see, on my sleeve here, I'm a rabbi. Now, I know that your husband took a synagogue, took a Torah out of the synagogue when they set fire to it. And unless I can talk to him, I'm going to have to report him to the French police. When I said French police, then she got excited, and she went in the back room, her husband was there. She went in the back, and she brought him out, see. And then, so he took over, and he says, well, what do you want? I says, I want to see that package that you took out of the synagogue. And he says, how did you know? I says, I want to see that package. He says, suppose we don't give it to you. You don't give it to me, I'll call the police. They'll arrest you, and you'll go to prison. Then the wife and he got together, she talked to him, finally she convinced him that he better give me the package, see. So he brought it out, and I said, put it down, he opened it up, he opened it up, and I cut the strings off of the package, so I could get a good look at it. He opened it up and it looked just fine, no damage. It was in good shape. So we put it back together again, he gave it to me, and he says, you're not going to report this. And I says, I'm not going to say a word to anybody about this. I'm just happy that you're giving this back to me. It's better for you, it's better for me. And I took it, and I took off, and went back. The funniest part was that when I first came to Haigerloch, see, this is an incident that happened, a little bit of a comical incident. This MP that stopped me, of course, saw the Jeep, and he saw the USA on it, so he knew I was from America. So he says, where did you live in America? I said, well, I lived in Connecticut. In Connecticut? He says, where did you live in Connecticut? I said, I lived in Bridgeport, Connecticut. He says, you lived in Bridgeport? He says, you know where I lived? In New Haven. Here, this guy is telling me. In New Haven. God, he couldn't get over it. So you see, when I first came to Haigerloch, I wanted to be sure I could find somebody I could trust, in case the French, you know in case the French soldiers picked me up. At least I could fall back on him, and he could say he knew me, and I was all right, and all that, you know. So that was a funny thing that happened.

Did anybody ever investigate as to whether that fire was set or accidental, the fire in the synagogue?

I never heard. It was the Nazis. We knew that. The Nazis had set fire to the synagogue.

Who in the Nazis?

I don't know. This is even after the Americans were already in the town, and, I'm sorry, in Stuttgart. You see, I was in Esslingen. This happened in Stuttgart. So I wasn't too familiar with what was going on. I had all I could do in Esslingen without checking on Stuttgart. But this is where that did happen, was in Stuttgart.

You mentioned that you said to the Frenchman there with the Torah that you were a rabbi. How did you get to be a, I presume you were referring to a chaplaincy in the army. How did you get to be an army chaplain?

An army chaplain? Because I think it was my knowledge. I had studied a great deal. I knew the stuff. I knew it, and the rabbis there knew it. And so that was it. And I went to the synagogues, and whenever we had a synagogue or a service or something, I was always there and pretty much controlled. You know what happened when the war ended and the American soldiers were getting ready to go back home, see? And they came through the town that I was in, you know, and they wanted to attend a shul. And I hadn't found the synagogues yet, see? So I took them out to a field and I took all the books out, and they were praying out there in the field. And they said, don't you have a synagogue that we can go into? At that point, I didn't. But the next day, and I made it up for, the next day, what should happen? I go into the Rothaus. You know what the Rothaus is? Rothaus. I asked the three people there. They were liars. I knew that, but I wanted to try again. I says, can you tell me where your synagogue is? We don't have one. Nein, nein, nein. Nein means no in German, see? Three neins. I walk out the door, and I hear somebody holler, judischer rabbiner, you know, like that. So I turned around. He frightened me in a way, you know. I turned around, and he said, Kann ich sprechen mit dien? Can I speak with you? I said, sure, come over here. He comes over, and he says, I saw you in the Rothaus. What did they tell you? They told me they didn't have a synagogue. He says, rabbiner, they lied to you. They lied to you. You want to take a walk with me? It'll take five minutes. I'll show you your synagogue. First, I thought he might be. I didn't know this fellow, you know. I didn't know this fellow. Should I trust him? Shouldn't I trust him? I figured I better trust him. He looked like a pretty good guy, you know. So I walked with him. We walked down there. There was a house, the synagogue, and another house. He looks at it, and he says, you see what happened, Rabbi? When the Germans came here to burn your synagogue, he says, the women in those two houses came out hollering. You set fire to our house, you'll burn everything if you're going to burn the synagogue. Everything is going to be destroyed. No more houses, see. So the Germans figured they'd better not start with the women, you know. So they made a Hitler Jugend out of it at that time. That's what they did. They made a Hitler Jugend. They taught these kids all about Hitler and all about the Nazis, and that's the way it went. So we took it, and then we changed the whole thing around.

Was the man who identified that for you a non-Jewish German?

He was, he was not, I can't tell you, I'll tell you why, and I feel very bad about this. I never really got to know this fellow. I couldn't spend much time because he didn't, for some reason, he didn't have much time. When I met him, and he took me to the place there, I had asked him, do me a favor, can you get me eight women to come here and clean out the synagogue? Clean it out good, and I need to have someone make a sign, a nice sign that Jewish services and the time, seven o'clock, every Friday night, see? And he says, sure, he says, I'll be glad to do it for you, so that was it. The next day, he was the one who told me about the fire in the temple. After that, I never saw him again. I just couldn't imagine what had happened.

How did you get money to pay people like these women to come in and clean out the synagogue?

How did we get money? I really don't know. I never, to tell you the truth, I never actually paid them myself. Where this money was coming from, I don't know. I don't know. It was a peculiar thing. Nobody ever approached me for money, nothing like that. Money wasn't a factor, it seems over there. I'm sure they were getting something, but how much money they were getting, I had no idea.

Were you asked to become a rabbi or a chaplain by any of the officers in charge of your unit at that time?

No, because actually there were no, in my unit at that time, there were no Jewish officers, so they wouldn't tend to go into something like that.

And could you tell us how you got this particular post?

Well, I told you, I called the army, you know, and this man that I knew, this man, and he told me he would take care of arranging to send me to Nazi Germany. He knew I was Jewish, and he said, you're a Jewish, a Jewish rabbi, this is what he says to me. You're a Jewish rabbi, and if they ask you there, that's what you are, a Jewish rabbi. He was a lieutenant colonel, and he says, remember that, that's what you are. If anybody says anything, you can tell them that I told you, that's all.

So you were an informal chaplain then?

That's right, that's right.

At the time, with the war still going on, did you ever have the experience of entering any Nazi concentration camps?

Well, actually, I'll tell you the truth. First of all, I don't think the camps were going at that time. For instance, I went to Dachau, see. I went to Dachau. Dachau had the reputation of being the second largest place in Germany during the war, concentration camp. And it was a very, very big place, and you walked around that place, and I went inside and closed the doors just to see what they had in there and all that. And then I came out, and you never saw a child. A child. 'Wo sind unsere Kinder?' Nothing. Nothing.

Are you saying you were actually in the camp?

I was actually in there. Oh, yes, I went in there a few times. Oh, yes.

But the camp had been liberated prior to your going there?

That's right.

You weren't in there.

No, that's right. I never saw anybody in the building there, never, and that was a big building.

Were you able to speak to any of the

The Germans

people still in the-

To the Germans. To the Germans outside I was able to speak, and I was giving them hell all the time.

Are you saying there were no longer any prisoners in Dachau?

No. At that time, no. No. By the time I went to Dachau, see, I would go to other places too at times. But in Dachau, no, I never met a prisoner in the building to answer your question.

So you went into Dachau on your own volition in order to see what you were going to-

To see what had gone on, and then I came out and I spoke to the Germans.

We'll now pause for a change of tapes.

This is tape number three in the interview with Mr. Elmer Pressman. You were telling us about You're speaking to the people outside of Dachau to the German people

Yes.

Would you want to describe what the conversations were and what your feelings and reactions were?

On their part, I found this out on their part. There was very little talk. They didn't want to talk I spoke to them naturally in German and they understood me But whether it was a case of having lost the war, a case of shame for what happened? I didn't know and when I came out of the building The first thing I said to them 'Wo sind unsere Kinder?' And they knew what I said to them, you know, where are our children I talked about our children. Nothing.

Again, I'm gonna ask you to help me out. I understood you to say that there were no prisoners left in Dachau at the time that you was there.

No, there was nobody in the building.

Well, then if there was nobody there then obviously there wouldn't have been children either. So I don't quite understand.

No, no, no the question my question was this that Everybody had kids there the in the Germans they were going around on bicycles and so on see and I made a point to make sure they understood what I said 'unsere Kinder' our children not your children 'unsere Kinder' kids all riding on bikes. Nothing.

So that was a general question.

That's right.

Not necessarily pertaining to Dachau.

That's right, that was a general question.

Were there any other camps that you had seen or visited?

No not in a camp. No, I never, never had the time to spend it to spend with that. I was tied down pretty well. I would go to certain camps, you know I would just go through when I would stop to see how things are going and so on. Then I'll tell you what was a very nice thing a nice feature was that we had a fellow in the camp. His name was Moshe Rontal, he had a beautiful voice. Beautiful voice, when the Germans captured him they told him if he would sing a song for them every day they wouldn't kill him but once he stopped singing for them, they would kill him see, so whether it was true or not whether they would kill him and I would I would have to agree They would say they'd kill them. They would kill him. They killed plenty of people so when that happened the holidays were coming Yom Kippur so on Those holidays were coming and so I felt I had to get a place where these people could come and have services so I got a nice place and then I said to myself my god After what's happened? It's just you know a few weeks are these people going to come to a service now? So I figured gee I better go back to the camp and talk to the fellow who was in charge there, you know, they had like a manager So I'm back and I says look and I just hired a place, but I'm afraid now will these people come back to the service? He says let me find out for you and if you can contact me in three days, I'll let you know. So three days instead of contacting him, I figured I better go up there so I went up there and I talked to him again. He says yes, I think it's alright now I think that they'll do it. Well, let me get back to Rontal now, this fella Rontal had a beautiful voice he was he was probably the bes- he could have been the best in Europe that that was his voice and he sang tremendous yeah, so he came and he conducted the services and he did all the singing and he was about so high, you know, he wasn't very tall but he had the voice that and he could put that voice right out and after the holiday was over I says to him do you have relatives in the United States? He says yes, I have relatives. My wife has relatives in Chicago. I says would you happen to know where they live in Chicago by any chance? He says she does but I'll find out for you so he found out and he let me know and I contacted them and they told me that they would Make arrangements to bring them over so he could come to Chicago. They went to Chicago, he was hired by the biggest shul in Chicago. They hired him immediately Immediately and that's where he was. Then he was there for about two years He became ill and before you knew it he was gone.

Now was that I'm sorry first of all when you talked about going from camp to camp,

Yeah.

And arranging these services. I gather this is when the war is over the war had ceased It wasn't during wartime now.

No, it's the post-war. That's right.

So when you refer to these camps, are you talking about the DP camps that were set up? Is that what they were?

I'm talking about yes about these these individual camps that they had if I was going by a camp where I wasn't actually there all the time, you know I would stop to see if everything was going all right It didn't take too much time and do you need something or can you have something else and then I would continue I would go wherever I had to go because you know, it was the territory wasn't tremendously big but the roads were very poor actually that you had to travel over and and then you went to a place and you were held up a lot and so on and so forth.

Now when you were successful in getting Moshe and his family to reunite with their relatives in Chicago,

Yeah.

And you were successful then, were you also successful with other people who wanted to come to the United States?

Well I, I can't answer that question I'll just say this to you that I contacted other people. What they did or not I never heard I never heard we did contact people. It was difficult to get people to take people back from Europe for some reason. I don't know why whether they felt that they had so much problems so many so many problems that they didn't want to bring them over to America and find out they were sick or something like that. A lot of people were sick that one.

But did you make the attempt to try to help other people-

Oh yes, we tried to to contact these people. Sure. I tried to contact people in England in, let's see there was another just outside of Poland there. There was another country there that I tried to contact and was no luck there at that time, but people were a little skeptical for some reason about.

Were there other ways in which you tried to help the people in the camps besides holding services and trying to get them in contact with their relatives?

Well, the one, you see what happened to is this I didn't mention this to you that the Haganah in Palestine would come up to our place. Oh They came up while I was there that year I was there they came up about three or four times and They were trying to get me to go to Palestine. So I looked at him I said there is no way I'm gonna go to Palestine first of all, I have been hired by the army the United States Army, I wouldn't leave them. That's number one, number two, this is a poor time for anybody to go to Palestine. So the guy says to me and this was Haganah. He says how come? I said I'll tell you how come the British are there now they're gonna be there two more years and as long as the British are there this is no time for you to be asking people to come to Palestine because you'll start a complete war there if you do that. So he looked at me and that was the last time he approached me on it.

Now in addition to, to the work that you've described did you, were you in any way helping let's say with distribution of food or clothing to the people in the DP camps?

I never had too much time for it, but I'll say this, I'll say this when I got, early on when I got there and the camps were opening up and I saw some of the women coming, you know and I said gee they dress very poorly and the dresses are torn and all that so I got a hold of a German woman and I said, can you tell me please if is there a German store in town? Where I can buy ladies dresses and she looked at me, you know kind of funny and I said, oh no no it's it's not for my family, But I I've got to have some ladies dresses. She says, so she told me where to go. So I went down there and I go in the store and the fella had beautiful dresses in the store. So, my Jeep was outside and I said would you please fill up that Jeep with dresses I don't care how many dresses you give me fill up the Jeep now you listen to what I'm going to tell you and it's a true story. This is true. You won't believe it. So he did he hired he gets the boy who helped him in the store they fill up the thing with dresses. He had about 300 dresses in that in that Jeep. I had a pack of cigarettes camel cigarettes in one pocket. I never smoked never smoked but I cut off the top see and I took it and I took out six cigarettes from the pack I put them in my hand and he was sitting right opposite me. He says 'Amerikanische Zigaretten' I says yes. Amerikanische Zigaretten. And he kept looking and looking and looking I says I would like to pay you, 'Ich mochte Ihnen bezahlen" He says - and again - 'Amerikanische Zigaretten' So he, he makes a motion to me he would like the cigarettes. You know that he took those cigarettes instead of money Would you believe that? Money meant nothing to these people it was the product that that that meant anything to them. That was it.

Was that a one time event, or did you use those cigarettes to buy any more things for the people?

Well, it it, no, it just, no I'll tell you it, in France when I was in France at that time there, a fellow gave me, he wanted something that I had on, I forget what it was, some piece of clothes and a big bag full of francs French money. He says here. They're worthless. Anyway, you may as well take them and it was the same way in Germany, money meant nothing. They couldn't get anything for it.

In all the various things that you were doing as a... chaplain there did you have to report or were you responsible to any higher officers in telling them about the kind of work you were doing?

No. No. No Everything was left to me. I I didn't abuse the privilege, because I knew how things had to be run and run properly, you know, but no, no.

Was, did you get any assistance anywhere to help you with your job? For example were any soldiers assigned to you to help you carry out these these duties?

No It's possible something might have happened at one time or another but any number of things any occasions like that. No, it never happened. But at some time it could have happened.

You mentioned several times about driving here and there, how did you get the transportation? Did you just go to the motor pool and say I want a Jeep or a-

-No I had a jeep. Oh The army gave me a jeep, I needed the jeep, I was driving every day. Every day, I would go to Munich, I would go I told you before at the Dachau I would go somewhere else up north and I was driving every day. I had to have a jeep.

In connection with your work, did you ever... come into contact with any civilian officials who represented any of the Jewish organizations here like the Joint Distribution Committee or any others?

Yes I did. I came in contact with them. I came in contact them they came down one time they came down from some Jewish organization there were seven or eight people as I remember it now in that group they came down to Dachau when I was in Dachau. I went down to Dachau for some prayers they came down and they came into the building and the first time I'd ever seen people in the Dachau building and they asked me if it was alright for them to walk through the building. I said sure there's nobody here you can walk through you won't see anybody. So they start out and they got down just a short way and one of the fellas collapses he just passes out. Of course there was a stench in that building you know there was a stench in that building. He just was overcome, so the other I said there were seven or eight in that group there the others didn't know what to do with them. You know, they started to push him and to hold him and everything else and the other fella says why don't you take him outside and give him some fresh air? Maybe they'll do some good, so they picked him up and they took him outside and then after a little while he did he came back. See but it was so bad and there was horrible.

More specifically, do you know what organization these men represented or belonged to?

No, they came from different organizations. I think one or two of them were from feed organizations, from food from food. This is what I've sensed in the way they talked.

Did you ever ask any of these people if there is any way in which their organizations could help you or did any of them offer to help you in the work you were doing?

They never helped no this was right after the war ended and they, they didn't show any desire to help.

In the course of your work, did you get to know any of the people... either in the Esslingen camp or any of the other camps that you visited. Do you get to know them very well or get to be personal friends with them?

Any other camps?

Or any of the camps, Esslingen?

No, I I, no I never did because I really didn't have the time to devote for it I was going seven days a week. There's no such thing for me to have a day or a half a day or anything like that I was working seven days a week and I didn't it was it was my job and I didn't mind it I like to I like to go out there and see the people and so forth and so on I wouldn't have known what to do with myself if I didn't go on the seventh day, this is what it amounted to so I went out seven days a week and I was able to do things.

You had no time for social activities?

Oh no no no, That never entered into it. I forgot about what that was like.

Did you meet your wife in the Esslingen, Esslingen camp?

No. No, she was here at that time.

She was here in the States while you were there right during and after war?

I believe, well wait a minute was she here or not, but I know she wasn't she wasn't there she wasn't in Germany at that time.

Where were you married?

Where were we married?

Yes.

We were married I believe it was it could have been in a section of Germany up near France somewhere near there somewhere in that spot there up in there.

You were not married in Esslingen or Stuttgart or any of the other cities there?

I don't know for sure I've forgotten now whether it wasn't one of those things but I think was up in the other area there.

Do you remember the first time you met your wife?

Oh, yes, I can tell you exactly where it was.

Tell us.

All right. We found, as I told you, we found the synagogue so we fixed it all up was cleaned up and everything else we had a Torah and I was out one day and I knew there was a service to be held that day in the synagogue so I came back and as I came back I saw a fellow and a young lady standing in the doorway of the synagogue, see. I didn't know, I knew who the fellow was, a funny thing. I I knew him from America see. The woman, the lady I didn't know who it was, see. So I parked my car, the Jeep I parked the Jeep and I went back and he introduced me to this lady. And from there she used to come to services I told them to come to services every Friday night. We have a service. You're welcome to come It was a a small synagogue. It would seat about 55 people, you know and everybody every time Friday came they came and they you know participated in the service and all that so it was very nice.

And that's how you met your wife?

That's how I met her.

How long after you met her were you married?

Well, we were married before we left, before we left to go home. My guess well, I'm not sure really it'd just be a wild guess because It was before we left it might have been 5, 6, 7 months, something like that something within that range.

So then your wife must have been in Germany at the time and not in the United States.

Oh, yes, yes. It was in Germany.

What was there about your wife to make you want to marry her?

Oh well, first of all, she had the looks. That always catches a man, you know that. And she spoke, of course she con- we conversed and she spoke Polish I spoke German, English and we were able to speak enough of one thing that we could understand each other and this is the way it went on and, was a good cook and she'd, you know on the holidays she would make a holiday meal, you'd invite somebody up somebody up from around there and It worked out very nice. And I told her at first at first I thought we might stay on in Germany But then I reflected on that and I thought my god she's worked like a devil, I want to get her back to the States, you know. So I decided that we go back to America Instead of doing something else we're going to go back to America. You've never been there Let's go back and at least it'll be a little bit easier for you, you won't have to have this this mess. So this is what happened.

Do you remember what year you returned to the States?

Came back? Well, whatever year that you had the year you told me this morning when I... what was the year that you mentioned to me?

I think it was 1950 that you said you came back here.

Oh no I came back before then.

You were discharged in 1946.

'46 that's when I- and What was the month, do you remember?

I think it was June.

June well, okay, then we came back in... and it must have been June then.

So you were still in the army at that time?

Yes, I had to go to, where was it, down in Jersey in New Jersey to what was the name of camp down there now and then I think they moved out of there. Well, anyway, the army camp down there is where I had to go to be discharged.

Right, When your wife came here with you did she go to work or did she-

No, she went to school, and the teacher said she was an exemplary pupil. And she was she worked hard. and she became very very good, you learn the language, you know without too much trouble and it was good.

And how many children did you have here in this marriage?

3.

Have you described your own wartime experiences to them?

Has what?

Have you, described to your children the war time-

Well, they've heard me speak about it if they wanted to know something about it I would explain to them what had happened and, they were interested naturally, they were interested but you know when you work when you're doing something yourself then it becomes meaningful to them. You know, it isn't like some stranger or something like that but yes-

When you came back here did you go back to the company that-

I went back to the company, yes, I went back to the company and I worked for them until oh for some time after that and I was involved in I was driving all over I was up in Massachusetts and over in New York State and I used to love to drive up there and especially New York State when it was nice beautiful and so I stayed with them quite a while and then, I left, and, that was it pretty much. I did some work in the Jewish school at that time, you know.

How did the personal observations that you had to make and personal experiences that you had to make about the Holocaust did that in any way affect your faith or your religious beliefs?

Well I'll tell you, that's a good, that's a good question. Sometimes it's very difficult to answer a question like that, something like that does have an effect I believe on people that it shakes them, It shakes them as though they were in a stupor and it wakes them up, you know but somehow or other In my experiences that I had sometimes there are other things that come up and make you feel gee, how could this ever have happened that way, you know. So you hope that you've taken the right path,that this is what you should be following not any other path. See and I think there's a lot to that.

How did Um your experiences and your wife's experience as a Holocaust survivor effect the way you raised your own children?

Oh, I don't think it had too much effect from that standpoint. My wife had two sisters, you know home in Poland. And she was raised with with children so I don't think it had too much effect on the way she raised them.

How do you feel about the Germans today 50 years later?

Well, how do I feel about them? Well, I'll tell you it's I I leave I leave the the ledger open. I won't close it Or say anything about it, but i'm just watching that's all. Very tough, very tough.

Do you ever read books or watch films about the holocaust?

I've seen some on tv, you know, you see a film sometimes that comes up and when we know that there is a film on then we can if we can to put it on and to watch what they have to say and sometimes I feel that From my wife's standpoint. It's better sometimes that she doesn't watch it, you know it becomes too much.

Is there anything else that you would like to tell us, that, about your experiences that we haven't covered so far in our interview?

Well, right off hand. Um I don't particularly think of anything else I think we've covered the main points. I think we've covered the main points. Uh, I made a few notes there the main points and I wouldn't Just off hand that it's hard to say because I think i've covered quite a few points here Along the line, you know and pieces here and there, you know trying to get everything in if we could.

And you feel that you've accomplished that?

I think so, I think so.

This concludes the interview, uh with Mr. Elmer Pressman Thank you very much.

You're welcome.

Well, I told you about that picture.

Tell us now on camera, please.

All right. That picture was taken during the war. These are pictures of people who were killed during the war. Those caskets were made, and they were buried with a Jewish star on them. And when that picture was taken, it's difficult to say with any certainty.

Did you arrange for those burials?

Well, I arranged for quite a few burials. Whether I arranged for these, I wouldn't say. I don't know. This is a picture that was taken at a different time. It's hard to say. It happened, of course, during the actual war, not after the war and not before the war. During the actual war, from here, it seems to me, I see a rabbi in there in the middle of that picture. I could be wrong, but it seems to be a rabbi there in the middle of the picture. Who it is, I'm not sure. But that's just about it.

Who are the men there, and what are they doing?

Well, my guess would be that they would, they would, at some point - they were going to bury somebody. When that was going to be, I don't know from that picture.

That picture was taken at a town in Germany, where they had an uprising. These are German police who were summoned up there, by whom we never found out. They were summoned up there to try and stop the people. Well, the upshot was that when we got up there, we turned the Germans around, sent them home, everything quieted down, and there was peace. When they saw the Germans coming, that made it even worse, because these were people who'd been in the camps. And when they saw Germans, that's all they had to see. And this is what happened.

When I went back to Germany, this is the picture of the synagogue that we found. We had quite a bit of work to do on it, to get it cleaned up, cleaned out. We had found, in the meantime, we had found a Torah that we were able to put into the synagogue. We had sign made for the services, and we had a sign set up for not only the services, but for inviting some of our people into the synagogue who hadn't been in there in a long, long time. They didn't realize, of course, that the synagogue was open. It came as a shock to them in a way, but as a good surprise. And this is the way it happened.

This is a picture taken in Esslingen. It shows the army, the American army there, soldiers, going, getting ready to go home. And they had come through Esslingen, and they had asked me if we had a synagogue available. And I told them, no, we weren't able to locate it. But I said, come on out on the field, and I've got brand new books, and we can have a service. So we had a service, and they had a grand time. And they wanted to know if tomorrow, the following day, that they could do the same thing again. And I said, if you're here, by all means, come. In the meantime, we found the synagogue, the actual building. The next day, we found it.

Through that, you just - now we want to do now, is -

Well, for the most part, that's people, that contains people who were in the Holocaust. And eventually, they, they reached our location where we were. They were there a while, and then they decided that they would, there were people in that group there that wanted to come to America, see. They wanted to know if they would be able to come to America. I said, why don't you put a sign on there? That was when Truman was president. Put a sign on there. Tell them you want to go to America. They'll open the door. So this is what it was.

This is a picture of people, some who had gone to England during the war, some who had been in camps during the war with all kinds of stories. And after the war, they came. They came to our services that we had, and we became quite friendly with them. And we left them about, oh, a year later. We received postcards from them. After we had gone away, postcards, sending us greetings, and so on. Yeah.

You know, I'm not really sure where this picture was taken, to be truthful. It's a nice picture, a nice picture of Barbara and another so-so of me. And that's about all I can tell you. I think Barbara would probably know more about that picture than I do. She's a lot better looking than I am.