Leo Fettman Shoah Foundation Testimony

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And Ben?

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Thanks.

Today's date is October 31st, 1995. I'm interviewing the survivor Cantor Leo Fettman, F-E-T-T-M-A-N. My name is Ben Nachman, N-A-C-H-M-A-N in Omaha, Nebraska, United States of America. We're conducting this interview in English. My name is Ben Nachman. I'm conducting an interview with Cantor Leo Fettman, October 31st, 1995, Omaha, Nebraska, USA. The interview will be conducted in English. Can you give me your name, please?

Leo Fettman, L-E-O F-E-T-T-M-A-N.

And where were you born?

I was born in Nyiradony, Hungary. It spells N-Y-I-R-A-D-O-N-Y in Hungary.

Pardon me. What year were you born in?

1925, March 27.

Can you briefly describe your life growing up in Hungary, pre-war years?

I grew up in a small town, as I mentioned before, and I went to Chedar, to Hebrew school, at the age of three, where they cut my hair. That was my first haircut they gave me. In the Orthodox home, children had their hair, and they didn't cut them until the age of three. At the age of three, I went to Hebrew school.

We spent in the Hebrew school approximately five, six hours daily. Then when I reached age six, then I was enrolled in the public school. I went to public school from eight in the morning til five in the afternoon. Then we went to Hebrew school til seven, eight, or nine in the evening, and that went on for many, many years.

Was your family a religious family?

My family was very religious. They were Orthodox, and our home was strictly Orthodox. Was the community a large Jewish community? That was a small town, and we had 39 or 40 Jewish families. All of them were Orthodox Jews.

Approximately what was the population of the town?

I believe the population was about three or four thousand.

With what percentage Jewish?

With 40 Jewish families.

What was daily life like in your home? Normal routine?

In the morning, we got up. We went to Hebrew school. In Hebrew school, we were praying. We had a minyan service, and after service, we went home for breakfast. Back to Hebrew school. At lunch time, we went home for lunch. Back to Hebrew school again, and that was until I reached age of six. When I went to public school, it was the same thing.

In public school, were you in school most of the day in public school, and then the Hebrew school later?

Yes, I was in public school during the day, and I had experiences, terrible experiences in the public school. For example, as a Jew, I was not permitted to play with non-Jewish students during recess. We had to stay in a corner outside. During class, if I had to go to the bathroom, I was not permitted to go to the bathroom. I would go many, many times with wet pants. This is the type of life I lived and I grew up in the small town. When I went to the synagogue, I couldn't carry my prayer books with me. I had to hide them under my jacket, and I was walking toward the synagogue or to the Hebrew school, and I looked around to see if there are any non-Jews around. When I saw no non-Jew, then I ran inside into the synagogue. So this is the type of life I lived.

I had long payots, curls, which I'm sure that you've seen those.

Were you able to wear a kippah?

I never wore a kippah. I always wore a cap or a hat. In that case, they didn't know really if I was a Jew or not, because my neighbors knew I was not wearing a kippah outside on the street. We spoke Yiddish in our home, always Yiddish. My father had a store, and soon he walked into the store. We spoke Hungarian, because if a non-Jewish customer would hear Jewish language, they would walk out immediately. On the street, we were not permitted to talk Yiddish.

We spoke only Hungarian. Even in the synagogue, we got so used to the Hungarian language that we spoke Hungarian. And this is the reason even today. Many Hungarian Jews. They speak Hungarian.

What kind of business did your father have?

My father had a general store. He also had a farm about seven kilometers from us, and we had two non-Jewish families who were working on the farm.

Did he make a decent living at that time?

I think so, because we had a nice home, we had nice clothes to wear, but my father was a very, very hardworking man.

You mentioned that you experienced what I would call anti-Semitism. Can you describe that briefly for me at that period?

Anti-Semitism. It was all around us. We had to watch what we are saying, how we are saying things. It was just hatred. It's so hard to describe. I was . . . People pointed fingers at me. Here is a Jew in the public school, as I mentioned, that we were very much afraid of the non-Jewish kids. But I have to say, it wouldn't be fair to say every non-Jew was an anti-Semite, because that's not true. We had quite a few non-Jewish friends who were very close. Matter of fact, I had a birth certificate from one of my non-Jewish friends. And that helped me later when I was in a camp to wear a Nazi uniform, which I will explain later a little bit. So we had non-Jewish friends, yes.

Can you describe your Jewish community, the life of the Jewish community, as far as holidays were concerned, etc.?

Most of the Jews in this little town, I shouldn't say most, all of them were Orthodox Jews. And on Saturday morning, for example, we went to the synagogue. It was such a pleasure and wonderful to see Jewish people with the whole family. And we had the side curls, and it was pictures, so pictures to see. My father was walking in the street with three boys, and the payot was going back and forth. My father had a beard.

And on Shabbos, on Saturday, every Saturday, we went to Shul Friday night. My mother and my sister did not go. When we came home from synagogue, my mother, the queen of the house, my sister, the prince, both were wearing white dresses, and they were studying. My sister didn't go to Hebrew school. Her Hebrew school was the kitchen. Her Hebrew school was the dining room and the bedroom. Our home was a Hebrew school, and my mother was the teacher. I went for so many years to Hebrew school and to Yeshiva to higher Jewish education. My sister knew more than I did. And during the meal, my father used to ask us, what did you learn during the week? It was some kind of a test. So each of us boys told our parents, shared with them what we learned in the school.

During this period of time, how old were you when you started noticing anti-Semitism building, the troubles in Europe starting to evolve?

I noticed anti-Semitism in our own town. I had no idea what goes on outside of this little shtetl. There was one radio in our community, one radio. And this radio was owned by a Jew by Mr. Lindenfeld. And we used to go there occasionally at night to listen. But really, we didn't know what was going on. Because if we would know, perhaps some of the Jewish people would leave the country. We had no idea until the Nazis came to our home.

Prior to the Nazis coming to your home, obviously the war had already begun with the invasion of Poland.

Long time ago.

And were you aware of that?

I, as a youngster, no.

You weren't aware?

No, I wasn't. Because I had one goal, to study and to study and to study. That was it. We didn't care about the outside world.

Were you aware of the times when Hungary became an ally of the Nazis?

No, we didn't. I didn't.

You weren't aware of that?

No.

As the times progressed, when you got into the early 1940s, did you become more aware of the war?

We heard rumors, we thought it was rumors, that the Jews had taken out of their country from Poland and from Russia in ghettos. I had no idea what the ghetto means, what it meant. And we didn't pay too much attention. I remember we received a letter from one of my uncles who lived in the United States, begged my father, leave Hungary, come to America. And my father wrote a letter back. He said, I have America here. Why should I go there? And I wondered, I mean, I said, Orthodox Jew, America, I understand, is not a country where you can practice. When people go to America, the first thing we were told, they threw away their prayer shawls and their film, what he put on daily. My father said, I don't want that kind of a living, although it was a hard life in Hungary, but he didn't want to leave. But if you would know really what took place, I'm sure many Jews, including my parents, would leave.

You mentioned that you heard some rumors about people going to ghettos, et cetera. Can you speak a little more of that, tell me how involved it got? Did they mention ghettos? Did they mention concentration camps, et cetera?

As a youngster of 19, 18, 19, I didn't know. I heard of ghetto. I didn't know what a ghetto is. I didn't know what a concentration camp is. I just went with my study, with my usual life. And I knew there are non-Jews around me who hated me. So I accepted it and we lived with it. But I personally did not hear. I didn't know what a ghetto is and what a concentration camp is. We had no papers, no newspaper.

Can you briefly describe for me your family, parents, siblings?

I had one sister, Margit, M-A-R-G-I-T, then my brother, Dezso, D-E-Z-S-O, and my brother Sandor, S-A-N-D-O-R, and myself. So there were four children.

With your parents?

With my parents.

Did you have anyone else living at home other than your siblings and your parents?

At that time?

Yes.

At that time, my sister was already married and she lived in another community. And my older brother was taken into a forced labor, which was called in Hungarian, Munkaszolgalatos, because he was 21 or 22 years old. So he was away for a few years.

Can you spell the name of the labor group that he was taken to?

M-U-N-K-A-S-Z-O-L-G-A-L-T-O-S. That was the, it's called forced labor. That's in Hungarian. I don't know the name of the city where he was.

Do you know what kind of work he was forced to do?

He was working on railroad, construction, and most of the time he was working on streets, highway construction.

Was he able to come home during this period at all?

I believe he came home two or three times during the three years while he was there.

Was he compensated for this type of work?

No, he was not.

Was not compensated?

Was not compensated.

You mentioned your sister, a married sister. Did she have a family?

My sister had a husband and three children, and they lived about seven kilometers from our town. And the name of the town was Myirmihalydi, M-Y-I-R-M-I-H-A-L-Y-D-I.

What type of work did your brother-in-law do?

My brother-in-law had the same type of store, general store, like my father had.

You mentioned a general store. What kind of merchandise did they sell in this general store?

They had materials to make clothing, grocery, hardware. You name it. They had it there. Everything that the person needs in the household, they had it.

Did you have access to any of the larger cities in Hungary during this period?

Yes, we did. My father used to go every Thursday to another town, Debreczen, D-E-B-R-E-C-Z-E-N, and he used to buy the merchandise from there. He went to a wholesaler. So he went there every week. And also I went with him several times.

How did he go to these towns?

By train.

By train?

By train?

Was it a long trip?

It was 30 kilometers, and it took forever, hours and hours.

During this period, prior to the war, there was a worldwide depression going on. Could you feel that in this town?

I had no idea.

You had no idea?

No. Maybe my parents did, but they never shared it with us.

Did you have a rabbi at the synagogue?

Yes, we did. His name was Rabbi Fish. His last name spells F-I-S-H. And his first name, I believe, was Tzviavigdor. T-Z-V-I-A-V-I-G-D-O-R. And he was, at that time, about 30 or 32 years old.

Was this a full-time job for the rabbi?

Yes, it was a full-time job.

And the minyans were pretty well filled up each day?

Every morning and every evening. We had 40 Jewish families. You saw 40 men there and the boys. Every single day.

Did you have any relatives living in the town?

Yes, I had an uncle and his family, and I had my grandmother living this time. My grandmother stayed with my uncle.

Did your uncle have a family?

Yes. He had, if I remember, he had four children, and he had also the same type of store like my father had.

Did they live nearby you?

Two blocks from us.

And how were holidays spent?

Holidays, every family spent holiday on their own. It wasn't like here. Here, when we have a holiday, the whole family comes to grandparents. Over there, no. And the reason for this was because my father and the rest of the people wanted that each child should know how to celebrate a holiday. We know how to make a Passover Seder and all the holidays, not here. Here, everybody goes to the grandparents, and we ask the youngsters, do you know how to conduct a Seder, a Passover Seder? They have no idea because they go to the grandparents. In Europe, in Hungary, everybody had their own holiday. And we say it in Yiddish. Yedder einde nad gimach shabbas forzir. That means everybody made Sabbath for themselves.

So the families did not get together then?

Not for meals.

Not for meals?

Not for meals.

Anything after services or they all went to their own homes?

That's correct.

Went to their own homes.

Their own homes.

Very interesting.

Did you have any means or any form of entertainment?

Oh, yes, we had. It's called study. That was entertainment that we have. And I will never forget, not everybody was able to afford to buy books in the Hebrew school. So the rabbi had a book, and he was studying with us with a long table. And the boys were sitting on both sides. And it was interesting that the boys who were sitting on this side, they learned how to read from the right side. The people on the left side, they learned how to read from the left side. And people were facing the rabbi. They learned how to read backwards. And those people didn't even know how to read correct from the book. They give it to him, page to him. So not everybody had a book.

Was there an actual synagogue in the city?

Yes, we had a beautiful synagogue. We had the members sitting, praying downstairs. And upstairs were the ladies. It's called a mechitzah, a separation.

Did the rabbi act as the cantor also?

In our town, we had a rabbi, and we had a shochet, a slaughter, a ritual slaughterer. The rabbi was the cantor, but he had a beautiful voice. And the shochet was his assistant. And he had three sons with beautiful voices, and they needed a fourth one to be in the choir. I was the fourth member of the choir. So I was joining the choir, and the shochet's name was Mr. Weinberger, W-E-I-N-B-E-R-G-E-R.

He was a full-time shochet?

He was a full-time shochet.

He did all the ritual slaughtering then.

That's right.

Poultry as well as beef.

Beef, yes. And of course, he was also one of the teachers teaching in the Hebrew school.

Did he have a business in which he conducted his...

No, there was a building where he went to slaughter the animals. And the fowl, the chicken, he had a little stand in his backyard, and this is where he did it. And people brought in live chickens, and they slaughtered it.

Was there any industry in this town at this time?

Not to my knowledge, no. Most of the people were farmers and many professionals also, but there were no industry.

Of the Jewish people in the town, were there many professionals?

There were a few. Most of them were in business. And we had a few custom tailors, shoemakers.

Do you recall the time were streets paved at that time, or was there a lot of dirt roads?

Streets paved?

Yes.

What streets? Where we lived, there was no street there. We were walking in the middle of the road, and there was no street, dirt road. And we didn't even have electricity in my home, because where we lived, the electricity didn't come that far. So my father begged our neighbors, Jewish and non-Jewish neighbors, let's do something so we need electricity. But there was no cooperation, so we didn't have. So we had kerosene lamps, and this is what we used. And Friday night, of course, we cannot light a fire. So my father knew exactly how much kerosene to put into the barrel, into the lamp, so it wouldn't burn all night long.

How about plumbing? Did you have indoor plumbing?

If you would ask me that, I wouldn't even know what it means. No, we didn't have indoor plumbing. We had an outhouse, and we had water outside. The water, we had those wells with the pail we used to bring it up, and the water was used only to bathe and to wash dishes. The drinking water was about three blocks away from us, and we had to schlep. We had to carry the drinking water home every single day. And on Saturday, you wanted to make a Sabbath, the home, nicely. We had no wooden floors, so we used to use the broom, clean the house, and then we used to go to a place about a block away, and we used to bring home yellow sand, and we spread the yellow sand on the ground. It was so beautiful, and we knew it was Shabbat. It was Sabbath.

Did you ever have house guests for the Sabbath?

Only people who came from out of town, not people from town. Travelers or people came to buy something, to sell something, or they went through. Then we had those people, almost every Sabbath we had, yes.

So your home then had dirt floors?

Yes.

Dirt floors.

Dirt floors.

And how large was the home?

We had the store in the front of the building, then one bedroom, which was also the dining room and the kitchen, especially wintertime when we brought in the stove, and then we had the kitchen and another bedroom. And then we had another building near the house, which we kept there. Some actually we had a farm, so we kept the corn, potatoes there, and we did have a cow. We had our own milk, and my mother used to make butter, cheese.

What type of transportation did you have in the town?

In the town? What transportation? My two legs.

When did you first notice signs of danger with the war years coming upon you?

Actually, I would have to say about 1943, a year before we already almost could smell it. And I wanted to go to rabbinical college to another community because parents sent their children away to Yeshiva, to rabbinical college, to Jewish college. And my father said, I'm afraid you are the youngest one, don't go away from home. And that was the reason why I stayed at home when I went to school.

This was 1943.

1943. But we still didn't know what was going on outside of my little shtetl or outside of Hungary. We didn't know. I didn't know.

Did you notice the presence of any military during this period?

No. I thought what military? German military?

No, Hungarian.

Oh yeah, that was Hungarian military, yes.

More so than you had in prior years?

I would say so. And we didn't pay attention because we didn't know what goes on there.

Then when did you really start to get a flavor that something drastic was taking place?

In 1944, I was in January. And we celebrated Passover in 1944 in March. And March 16, all of a sudden, two Nazis walked into our home. And there are hundreds of Nazis who came to a little town. And my parents, one of them, sent us out of the street and tell the next Jewish family, the Nazis are in town, stay in the house. That was really the first experience that I had. So when they came in, two Nazis came in and they gave us orders. And they said, we'll give you 10 minutes time to get ready to pack your things. Each of you are permitted to have one suitcase or one luggage. We will be back in 10 minutes. We'll take the key away from you and you are not coming back. That's my first horrible experience. So they left the house. And what did my mother do? She took off four sheets from the bed that we slept the night before. And she put in each sheet food that we had at that time in our home. It never occurred to me. Why didn't my mother take four suitcases or at least four pillowcases, clean pillowcases? She didn't. She took the dirty sheets. My father bought a sewing machine for my mother a few weeks before that happened. And my father took a hammer and he was breaking the machine, breaking it. My brother and I, we stood there, we froze. We couldn't move. 10 minutes later, the same Nazis came back. They took the key from my father and they took us to the synagogue. We stayed in the synagogue for two days. We slept on the floor and ate there. And then on the third day, they took us to a ghetto. And they told us we are taking you away. And there are many, many wagons with horses, non-Jews. And they threw us, I can say that, threw us on the wagons. And 40 Jewish families left this little town. And the non-Jews were smiling, laughing at us, making fun of us, spitting at us. And then I realized those were my non-Jewish friends.

Tape two interview with cantor Leo Fettman. You mentioned that the Nazis came to your home. Were these plain clothes people or were they Nazi where they German troops?

They were wearing Nazi uniform.

Of the military?

Of the military, yes.

Military. You were loaded on to we were mentioning you mentioned that you were loaded on to carts at this point. Would you continue that story from that point?

They took us to a ghetto. The ghetto was about 30 kilometer from my little town. The name of the ghetto was, Nyirespuszta. N-Y-I-R-E-S-P-U-S-Z-T-A They took us to this ghetto, in this ghetto there were about 2,500 Jews from all over the area. There was fence around the ghetto. The Nazis constantly were walking outside of the ghetto each Nazi with a machine gun and a German Shepherd. That was on a Tuesday when we arrived into this ghetto. Following morning, we heard through the loudspeaker that the Nazis were asking young Hungarian Christians to assist the Nazis. I walk over to my father I said dad, I'm leaving. He looked at me, he knew me at the age of 19. I had a mind of my own if I make up my mind I'll do it and he just said to me, be careful. I will.

I got out with great difficulty. From the ghetto and I went to the Nazi headquarters and I said to the Nazi who was sitting at the table at the desk, I heard that you're looking for young Hungarian Christians to assist the Nazis, here I am. What's your name? Janos Szilagyi. J-A-N-O-S S-Z-I-L-A-G-Y-I and I did have his birth certificate. And I did have his birth certificate. I presented to him, and the Nazi looked me up from top to bottom, and he asked me why do you want to become a Nazi? I hate Jews. It was good enough for him. They gave me the Nazi uniform. My orders were to walk around the ghetto outside of the ghetto and if I see a Jew outside of the ghetto, I should kill him and no questions will be asked.

This was one of my assignments. One day I was walking down the street and I saw a tall chasid. C-H-A-S-I-D. A Chasid is the ultra-Orthodox Jew. He was wearing black suit and with a long beard. So I stopped him and he was trembling. He said, please don't kill me. Why would I kill you? Because you Nazis have orders to kill a Jew. That's true, I have this order. But before I kill you, let me ask you a couple questions. How did you get out of the ghetto? You won't believe me, try me. I have a wife and small children they are starving and my children starve, you find a way to get out please don't kill me and he beg me. At this point I look at him, almost smiling, and I said why would one Jew kill another Jew? What are you talking about? I am Jewish. You're not you're a Nazi. I am a Jew in a Nazi uniform. I don't believe you, and I began to speak to him in Yiddish and he said to me you really are tricky you Nazis, you even learn the Yiddish language. I said to him in Yiddish for heaven's sake, believe me I am a Jew my parents are In the ghetto with you. If you are a Jew, why are you wearing the Nazi uniform? So I could save your life and we were talking and I noticed that he has something under his jacket hidden. Then I asked him, what do you have there? Show me a loaf of bread. Where did you get it? I stole it. Oh, you stole bread. When the children starve you steal. Oh. Then he said to me a Nazi is coming toward us. He was facing me and the Nazi was behind me. I said to him, listen, I have no choice, I'm going to hit you but don't worry and I want you to run because he will kill you. I hit him. I turned around I saw this Nazi and I said heil Hitler. He didn't even answer me he began yelling at me. Don't you take orders from the Führer? Meaning Hitler. Such as? Why didn't you kill him? You have orders to kill him. And for a moment, I really didn't know what to say but I always believed in God and I still do and I really feel that when you need God, God is there. So something came to my mind and I said, okay, can't you see he's an old man? Let him suffer first for a few days, then we will kill him. I got away with it.

Every morning we had to shave as Nazis. Every single morning and we were in this large washroom, maybe 25 or 30 Nazis and one of the Nazis was whistling a melody and I'm listening carefully whistling a melody being a... A former member of a choir and a musician, and I said to myself, what is he whistling? Something Hebrew something a prayer or something, I don't know. So I took the knife and the soap and walk over next to him and I said heil Hitler My name is Janos Szilagyi. What's yours? He gave me a name. What were you whistling? And as you know, you might not know, a Jew will almost always answer with a question. And then I asked him were you whistling? He asked why do you ask? And I said to myself oh goody he is Jewish, but I didn't say one word to him. Following morning, I made sure that he and I will be next together to each other and while we shave and we talked about Nazis and about Jews, how we hate Jews and I was looking around I wanted to make sure that everybody will leave all the Nazis will leave. I wanted to have a discussion with him. Finally everybody left he and I remained. At that point I took out my bayonet which was part of my uniform, a knife about this size. I put it next to his neck and I said to him, I am going to kill you because last night I found out that you are a Jew, of course I didn't, I took a chance.

I said to myself, what can I lose? I'm almost sure he is Jewish. Take the knife away. No, not until you tell me who you really are. You're crazy. Maybe I'm crazy, you're a Jew, who are you? And he saw that I meant business. He said, okay, I'll tell you who I am. My name is Chaim Shlomo Engel. When he said that Chaim Shlomo Engel, I put the knife back and I said that my name is Eli Ezra Fettman. If he wouldn't be Jew, could you come up with such a name Chaim Shlomo? He couldn't. Then I asked him Chaim, what are you doing in this Nazi uniform? And he in turn asked me what are you doing in the Nazi uniform? So, we became buddies, and then he said to me, when did you come into this ghetto? I said three three or four days ago. You are number 19. I couldn't figure out what he was talking about. What do you mean? I'm number 19? 18 of those Nazis who you saw shaving there, eighteen of them are Jewish and you are number 19. Oh. Then I realized I was not the only one who escaped, and what do you people do? Well we meet every night secretly how we can help the people in the ghetto. So that went on for four weeks. Four weeks later, we heard again through the loudspeaker orders were given to the Jews, they should get ready because they are leaving the country and they're not coming back. We had we 19 Jews in Nazi uniform had a meeting and we made a unanimous decision to give up our disguise and we are going with our parents and that's exactly what we did. We walked into the ghetto and they asked each other who speaks fluent Hungarian and fluent Yiddish? I said I do, so they appointed me to be the spokesperson.

They're walk in 19 Nazis are walking into the ghetto. I had this megaphone and I called all the Jews together in one circle there. One Jew in the Nazi uniform was outside so I told them, make sure that no Nazi is gonna come because if they come let us know. So you walk in and I told them listen very very carefully, you heard that you're going, you're leaving the country. Yes, we did here. Where are you taking us? I won't tell you but listen carefully I want you to remain in this circle here all of you. We will be back in 10 minutes. If I will see one Jew wandering inside the ghetto, we will kill you all, remain here. We walk into the to the barrack where our parents were stationed and we removed the uniform put on regular clothes. We walk outside with the uniform put them on the ground and we burned them. And they said that's a trick.

It's no trick. We are Jewish. No, you're not. And I looked at the other guys didn't know what to say. I said, okay we are going to prove it to you, and I said dad where are you? So, my father came close. That's my dad. Mom, where are you? That's my mom, and the other a boy did the same thing. So they knew that we are Jewish. The smoke was quite large. So, when the Nazis saw the smoke from the outside, the fire department came in, two horses and a wagon. And when they saw what was going on uniforms are burning, they called for help. I would have to say maybe 100, 150 Nazis with machine guns and German Shepards ran into the ghetto, and when they saw the uniform was burning, they were holding the machine gun, and they asked, who is responsible for this? You heard 2500 voice 250 voices I, no 2500 people in the ghetto.

I asked you once more who is responsible for this? Everybody said I because they knew who we are. So, they didn't know what to do. So, they took us to the train station. When we arrived to the train station, there were hundreds and hundreds of boxcars and Nazis walking next to us. And when we arrived to the train station, then we were told we're going onto this train. 70 people were crowded in a boxcar and they were counting 68 69 70 cut.

If there was a child that his or her parents were already on the train, this child was not permitted to follow his parents he had to go to the next boxcar. I was with my father my mother my grandmother and my brother on the same car, and it took hours and hours til they filled up so many boxcars. Then they closed the door. There was one window close to the ceiling. There was no toilet facilities. There was nothing there and no food. After the war we heard that boxcars did have those little, I don't know how you call it the person had to go to the to urine so they had the urine. I didn't see it. We were standing like sardines. We couldn't move at all.

The train stopped several times. Every time when the train stopped, they opened the doors, and they were non-Jewish kids selling water, and of course, the people took off their rings everything their watches and they were buying water. The trip took two days and two nights or three days and three nights. I really cannot remember. When we arrived when the train stopped finally, I happened to be near the door, they opened this heavy door on this boxcar and there was a tall man, Nazi. We didn't know who he was.

He spoke in German and was immediately translated to all European languages and he said, my name is dr. Joseph Mengele. We of course heard a little bit of him, and I went face to face him, I, here is Mengele, and he said welcome to Auschwitz. That was the time we found out we are in Auschwitz.

You've mentioned, I just want to interrupt for one second, that you went to the ghetto. How long were you in the ghetto before you boarded the train?

Four weeks we were there, exactly four weeks. So, Mengele gave orders to get out of the boxcars, a horrible picture. Now, I'm speaking of the boxcar that I was. I would have to say at least a third of the people were already dead, and we didn't know. There was not enough room for them to collapse. So I look for my father, my mother, my grandmother, my brothers.

They were all alive, filthy, but alive. And Mengele said I want the men to walk over there and you'll form a line five people in a row. Women over there, five people in a row. We went to the designated place and of course the Nazis took pictures constantly and I have a picture. The picture was taken five minutes after we got off the train. My father is on the picture, my brother is on the picture, and I am next to my father my picture doesn't show. Then Mengele sent one Nazi to each boxcar to take care of the children. The Nazi grabbed the child by his arm, by his hair, by his leg, wherever he could and threw them into the air. You could actually see hundreds of children in the air. This was not something that I saw on television, I was there, I have seen it.

Cantor, you've mentioned going to Auschwitz. Were you in Auschwitz One or were you in Birkenau?

I have no idea. I knew there was an Auschwitz there was Birkenau. I have no idea where I was.

When the children were up in the air there, the Nazis used those children for their targets. If a mother or a father recognized her child in the air she or he ran to the child, and the mother and the child was killed, murdered by the Nazis. Again I have a picture with Nazi with a machine gun pointing at the mother and her child. Then they took care of the elderly people, they helped the elderly people to get on on a Red Cross trucks.There are many many Red Cross trucks. They filled up the truck. The driver got in he drove away about a half a block or so. The driver got out and they gassed the people in the Red Cross truck.

Then Mengele came back that we were standing the men, five people in a row, and he said to us, and I have to say he spoke very beautiful, very convincingly. There was no hatred while he was speaking, and he said to us, you are filthy and we were, I will ask you to remove your clothing. You are permitted to keep your glasses, nothing else. We will give you fresh uniform and you take a shower and when time it is sermon. We removed our clothing. They took the clothing away. Then people many people came they took off the hair from everybody with hair hand hair clippers. From top to bottom from everybody and we found out after the war that those were also Jews and many of them took the hair off from their parents from their father and mother, but they were not permitted to talk. So, they took the hair in large sacks, and they took him away.

The Mengele said, now I'm going to separate you, and he said, if I send you to the right, you go over there, to the left, over there. There was one Nazi behind him to make sure if the person will go to the left or to the right. And he went like this right, right, left, left, left. My brother and I were sent to the right the rest of my family were sent to the left. The rabbi, Rabbi Fish was standing next to me and he was also sent to the right, and he begged the Nazi can I go to the right, to the left? You want to go to the left? Yes, so they sent him to the left. Why did he want to go to the left? Because we thought that the elderly people will be sent to a nursing home or something who had idea of what's waiting of us. So those people were sent to the left, they're given a bar of soap about this size. The soap had initial, R-J-F. We didn't know what it's stood for, and we cared less. We're really very happy that they receive a bar of soap and they will take a shower. But we were told that the intial meant R-J-F rhein Judisch fett, pure Jewish fat, and the Nazi who was responsible for this for this project to create the soap was a woman Nazi by the name of Ilsa Koch. That's what we were told.So, when the people were holding the soap in their hand, that was the last time I saw my parents alive.

The Mengele came back again where we were standing, the younger people, we were sent to the right. We gave us the uniform the stripe uniform, a jacket, pair of pants, a mutze, a round cap and wooden shoes. Then Mengele picked two Jews. I'm sure he picked many others, but where I was, two Jews, and he placed them in the front of the crematoria. There was the door of the crematoria. The door of the crematoria is in Washington, you can see it there and I understand that it's still in Auschwitz. So, here is the crematoria, one Jew was placed here, and one Jew was placed here. Three Nazis in the front of them and then Mengele was walking around and he pointed the Jews at you over there, walk over there, this Jew he or she walked over before the first Nazi. The first Nazi did something to him or to her, I couldn't see it. What I did see when he came before the second Nazi he or she was full of blood here. Then the second nazi did something, I couldn't see it. Then the third Nazi did something, the third Nazi was maybe 10 feet away from me. The third nazi had a little dish in his hand and a small hammer. The Jew he or she had to open his mouth, and when he saw gold or silver tooth knocked out the tooth into the dish, and the two Jews who were next to the victim, picked up this Jew not dead yet, hardly alive put him into the oven.I also have a picture of this.

Now, if someone will ask me, how do I know so precisely what happened there? I was working there for the one day. Yes, I did it. I put in the bodies into the oven. The people who are working there were called Sonderkommando. Those people are working with Sonderkommando did not escape they're working there for several days.

Then they murder them. I'm still alive. How did I escape? Following morning, Mengele came into the barrack where we were stationed, and he selected several people but very very carefully. He looked at the person and when he said the person he said to him, go over there, and he pointed at me too. I didn't know at that point what to do. So, I asked my brother, my brother was two years older, what shall I do? My brother says, go over there.

I can't, I have to report to the crematoria. You don't, Mengele didn't take your name. He didn't take your number. If you go there, you know, you have maybe two or three days left, but if you go over there, you don't know, take a chance. I took a chance and I never reported back to the crematoria. Mengele took us to the hospital. There was a large building where they did all kinds of experiments, including myself. I was there for several days and what I have seen no human being can believe it you have to be there, and I don't think that I will go into it because it's quite difficult.

First of all, many people will not believe me. Many people won't believe me that human beings can do such a thing. However, there is one book in particular, It was written by a Hungarian Jewish doctor by the name of Miklos Nyisly. M-I-K-L-O-S the last name is N-Y-I-S-L-I I believe that Doctor Miklos Nyisli lives now in New Jersey. He was working in that hospital under Eichmann and under Mengele and it tells you in detail what took place there. I am in the middle of writing a book. The name of the book will be Test of Fate. In this book, I will write everything. I will not hide anything. Whatever I can remember it will be in this book.

Cantor when you arrived at Auschwitz, were you uh tattooed at that time? Are you given a number?

The Hungarian Jews were not tattooed and we found out later the reason why not. We arrived in 1944, a year or 13 months before the war ended and there was not enough time for them to tattoo five or six numbers. So, they gave us a number my number was 37276. We had them on our jacket.

How long were you in Auschwitz?

I would have to say probably five or six days, I do not recall it.

And where did you go when you left Auschwitz?

And they took us to, I was in five different camps. I was the first camp was Wustisdorf. Do I have to spell it?Yes.

Yes

W U S T E No, not E. Okay. I S D-O-R-F

And where was this camp located?

I believe it was in Poland someplace or in Germany. I have no idea where it was. We knew one thing. When it is at daytime and when it is at night when it was dark, you know, its nighttime, when it was bright. No, no, no bright, it was never bright. When it was light then we knew it is daytime, that's all we knew.

Did you go in a train from Auschwitz to this camp?

You know, you ask me, I really don't remember. No, no, it wasn't train. It was truck or a wagon. I don't remember. I believe it was trucks and they took us to this camp. I was there for a few months. Then they transferred us to another camp.

They constantly kept on transferring us. The reason for this was what we found out if the world will ask me. What did you do? What kind of a work? I cannot tell you. I saw why we're working but what really when I never saw a finished product. So, I and then they took us.

Well in this camp,

yeah,

what did they have you doing? Do you remember what your particular function was at that camp?

I was grading mountains. There was a large hill and they gave us shovels small shovels about this size and we had to do this one grading. Planier, they called it in German, planier, constantly this. Planier, they called it in German, planier, constantly this. You'll ask me what for? I haven't got the vaguest idea.

How was the food at this point?

The what?

The food.

I heard it the first time. Food, we don't know what food was. I'll tell you what, I ate for 13 months. I was in camp for 13 months. Every single morning the Nazis made for themselves coffee. They had this large, tremendous, large dish and they used the coffee bean, so they made the coffee for themselves and they took out the coffee and the ground remained at the bottom. They filled it up with cold water. They mixed it up and that was our breakfast, cold black water. For lunchtime, the same thing. For dinner, it was entirely different. The farmers used to bring in potatoes from the farm. It was dirty. It came from the ground. They filled up this big dish with warm water and the Nazis washed the potatoes. They took out the potatoes for themselves and we had the warm dirty water. Before we went to sleep, if you were able to sleep, they gave one loaf of bread for 20 people. The loaf of bread would probably around one kilogram and for 20 people. Now they took us to work, the work didn't take place in the camps. It was outside and the procedure was almost the same every camp. There was a roll call, five people in a row. And it's called, Tselappel. T-S-E-L A-P-P-E-L. Counting us.

What is that tselappel? You had to stay straight and I mean straight. You were not permitted to move your fingers or your head, turn your head. Straight. For one hour 60 minutes every single morning. Many people were not able to stay that long. So, the Nazis were watching us with machine guns if one Jew made a move, he was killed. Many people didn't want to stay. They wanted to die.They said it's much easier to be a dead Jew than a live one. So, they moved. They killed him.

One day, I will never forget this incident. It, there was a building what the Nazis called hospital. There were no such things, hospitals in camp, but they did have a building, and they called it hospital and I look at my brother during tselappel. Of course, how could I talk or look at him? When you were under these conditions, you learn how to speak without moving your lips, so to speak. And I said to my brother I wish I could be in that hospital over there. And he said to me, you know you wouldn't last long. Because nobody was permitted to be there longer than two or three days. The Nazis walked into this building every day and when they saw that the Jew is still there, he was there longer than the Nazi wanted him he killed him. So, he said why you want to be there? I said to him I don't want to be there for a long time, just for one day. I'm sick and tired mentally, physically, emotionally. But how can you get in? You can't go to the Nazi and tell him sir I'm sick. Didn't work that way. So, it was a nice dream. So, they took us to work. At work, I was working at that time, I was digging ditches. Each of us were given about five six meters long.

Reel three, interview with Cantor Leo Fettman. Cantor you were mentioning the hospital would you continue that please?

I wanted to go into this hospital just to to relax. But you couldn't ask the Nazi you want to go there. So, it was a nice dream. The very same day they took us to work, I tried to commit suicide. I wanted to make an end. I knew that I will never escape. So why suffer? Get it over with. So, I climbed on a tree, jumped on a rock and I jumped on the rock nothing happened.

I was disappointed. I was angry of course the Nazi saw what I was doing. He didn't say not one word and I kept on working what I was working on. When we arrived to camp this Nazi went to the Obershardführer to the head of the of the camp, the Nazi and said something to him probably what I was trying to do. And we went to sleep, following morning, during that tselappel. This Nazi who was the head of the camp. We called him com com, for a reason. I don't know his name, but com com was his name. So com com said, 37276 out.

I walked out from the line and facing him and he said to me, today you will be working with that organization there. The name of the organization was Chemishewerke. C-H-E M-I-S-H-E W-E-R-K-E. Chemishewerke was known as a punishment group. So, I was working there. One Nazi came over to me and he said I will be your supervisor today and you will be working here and that time what I was doing, I was smoothing again this mountain. All day long, if I stopped for a moment he hit me.

Just to take a deep breath, he hit me and that went on all day. No lunch for me, the dirty water. Before they took us back to camp. The Nazis used to take pieces of wood into their barrack it was wintertime. So, the Nazis said to me there was a long saw with two handles and I was holding one end and he was holding the other and he told me to do this so I was doing it. Of course, my hand was shaking and he slapped me several times and I said to myself, enough is enough. What can I lose? Only my life, which is worthless. So, I stopped and I said to him, sir may I say something? And he said to me, go ahead dog. They called us, Hund, go ahead. I said to him, when I was 19 years old, I was a student in the rabbinical college. I have no profession. I didn't eat today. However, and I pointed at him, your profession is a wood chopper and I said to him, du hast heute gefresen dreimal. Now, when we say in German to eat, and I said you ate today three times. In German we say essen. E-S-S-E-N. But they use the word fresen like an animal shovels in the food. So, I said to him, you fress today three times. He picked up one of the sticks that I helped him saw and he hit me under my knee.

I was out. I remember nothing. But I do remember when I woke up. I was in that so-called hospital and I looked around I couldn't move and I said to myself God really works wonders. I just said a few hours ago I would like to be in this hospital. Here I am, of course not under this condition. Two Nazis came in and they said to me, follow me.

I couldn't walk. So, they gave me crutches. I didn't know what to do with it. The crutches go first, or my leg goes first. So, finally they told me. So, I was walking in another room and my pants was tight because my leg was swollen. So, he said to me, remove your pants. I couldn't so he took a scissor or a knife, which I do not remember, and he made an opening my pants and I look at my leg. It looked like a rainbow all colors and the Nazis said to me lay down face down. There was a bench there and he took his knife, made several cuts under my knee and I have it. It's here. I can't hide it and he made several cuts under my knee. I was out. Again, when I woke up, I was back in the room in that so-called hospital and I was there counting the days. It was quite a few days, several days and they didn't kill me. One day, a Nazi came in and he said follow me, of course they had to help me, and what, they put gauze from here, up to here. They didn't operate what they did. They just let the blood or the puss go out. I don't know. So, I was in this position. They removed the gauze and I couldn't straighten out my leg. It healed in that position. I became a cripple and that went on and finally, I ended up in another camp in a camp where people who are not able to work were there.

That was the last camp, Durnhau. D-U-R-N-H-A-U and there were about 200 Jews cripples so to speak. Something happened in that hospital and I was accused that I was responsible for it. I was not. Again, I'm not going to share this here. Because I can't. So I was responsible they said and I was sentenced to be hung.

I was taken out in the front of 250 people there, during a tselappel and I had a rope on my neck. I was standing on a very low stool and the Nazi said to me. Do you know why you will be hung? Yes, I do. Why? Because I'm a Jew and it is a crime to be a Jew. Then we had a nice conversation. That I will call it a nice conversation and I made me quite angry this Nazi. At one point the Nazi said, Oscar come here. Oscar was the lageraltester of this camp. Every camp had a Jewish leader who spoke many languages, and he said to him, Oscar kick the bench away from under him.

Me? I should kill another Jew? Never. Then the Nazis said you are no longer lageraltester. He tore off his label he says, here, I don't want to be lageraltester. Then he called his assistant by the name of Schreiber. Schreiber, come here. Schreiber walks over with the label, here, and the Nazi continued to talk to me and I made him angrier and angrier and angrier.

And then at one point he just kicked the bench and the rope broke and I fell on the ground, and I look up at him, I will never but never forget his face. His face was white like a sheet of paper and I was down there and he bent down to shake my hand. I do not remember if I did shake his hand or not and he said to me in German said congratulations dog. It is an international law that the person cannot be persecuted twice for the same crime, and I smiled at him. I was disappointed because I really wanted to die. But I smiled and I said to him, I didn't know that you Nazis follow any kind of law, especially human law. Take him away, so they took me away.

What camp was that?

That was Durnhau.

Durnhau.

Durnhau. And finally, of course, the war was over, and I was freed by the Russians.

Can you give me the names you mentioned I think two camps?

Okay, the other camp was with the Wutwalterdorf. Think that they put me in this camp, especially so I will have a problem to spelling it. Wuterwaterdorf W-U- T W-A-L T E-R-D-O-R-F and another camp was called Volsberg V-O-L-S-B-E-R-G and.

Do you know the location of any of these camps?

I have no idea. I have no idea. And the, another one was Hausdorff, house, D-O-R-F, Hausdorff. Those were the camps that I was, different camps.

How long was the overall period that you were in these various camps?

Maybe two months. This started with Auschwitz and from Auschwitz I went to Wutwalterdorf Volsberg, Hausdorff and Durnhau in that order.

And this you, this was from the time you left the ghetto, until you were freed was what period of time?

From May 16, I believe is the day when we arrived to Auschwitz and I was freed May 9, 1945.

So it was a little over a year.

Yes, Yeah. So when the Russians came in, in this it was a sort of a hospital people were all cripples there. So they asked each person where do you want to go? I said, I want to go back to Hungary. What for? Don't ask me. I had no, no, I was staatenlos, stateless, I had no country, no parents, nothing. So, I had to go someplace and I figured I will go back to Hungary into a hospital where they will be able to take care of my leg. So, the two Russian soldiers took me back to Hungary and I was in a hospital there. They're not in my little town, but 30 kilometers from my town Debreczen. D-E-B-R-E- C-Z-E-N.

I was in this hospital and they had several surgeries they did on my leg. They wanted to save my leg. They tried everything they broke my leg several times. Finally, a little old doctor came in and he spoke with a broken Hungarian. And he said to me, son, let me try one more surgery And when he said it, are you a German? Yes, I'm a German. Don't you dare touch my leg. At that point I wouldn't trust a German person and he said to me, listen, I was a German not a Nazi, I was in a concentration camp, and he mentioned the camp where he was. I'm here to help you. Let me try one more surgery. What are you going to do? Well, I don't know until we get there. Okay. Then you had to sign a paper for me. What kind of paper? That you're not going to amputate my leg. Because if you put me to sleep you can chop my head off I wouldn't know, and he signed the paper and there was a nurse there by the name of Esther and a nurse is called Schwester. So, I said Schwester Esther. Here is a paper, would you please keep this off on me? I will. So, they put me under and I don't know how long it took and then when I woke up the first question was do I have my leg? Yes, you do. I couldn't see it because it wasn't in a cast. In Europe they use those pillows and what have you, I couldn't see it. So yes, you have your leg. Matter of fact, I want you to move your toe, and I really wanted to know do I have my leg or not? So, I lifted on my whole leg and the doctor said to me, you have a big toe there, you'll be okay.

I was there for about two months when I was able to walk out with crutches. Then I wanted to get out of Europe. In order to get out of Europe you had to go to a DP camp, displaced persons camp.

Cantor let me interrupt you just one time, were you able to go back to your hometown while you were at this hospital?

Yes, I was back in my hometown and it was very, very difficult. Somebody else a non-Jewish family lived there.

In your home?

In my yes.

Were there any survivors at that point that you know of in the town?

There were about four or five. So, I was who came back, and what two of them live in New York now matter of fact the Weinberger boys the son of the two sons of the ritual slaughter Weinberger, and two other brothers by the name of Galbelgal. One lives in Canada, and I don't know where the other one lives.

Please continue.

So, I came to a camp in order to get out, to get into a camp. I had to go first to Austria, I was in Vienna in a large building they called it Rachel Hospital. I don't know what it, it wasn't the hospital, and I waited there waited til finally I got out. I registered in Vienna to go to three places, to go to Israel to the United States and to Canada and I said to myself, whatever country will call me first, I go, I want to get out. Canada called me first, so I came to Canada. I came in a Montreal I lived in Montreal, Canada, and I lived in Halifax for a few weeks, and I was there for 11 years.

Going back to when you were released from the hospital, that area of the, of Europe was under Russian control.

Yes, it was.

Was it difficult then to go to Vienna which was it was Vienna under Russian control also?

I believe Vienna was under Americans not Russians.

Was a difficult to change from?

Not at all, not there.

You were able to do that?

Yeah, but what was difficult it was difficult from, from, from Vienna, to get out. Because Vienna was divided into three sections and then, during the night they're crawling on the ground and the head of the organization who helped to go from one zone to another. It was none other than Moshe Dayan, he was the head of this this group. So, finally.

Well then pardon me, but did you go to a DP camp at that point?

Yes I went to DP camp to Bergen-Belsen B-E-R-G-E-N B-E-L-S-E-N.

Was that on the site of the former concentration camp?

Next to it not at the same place next to it.

But it became a displaced person camp at that time?

Yes, that was a army base for the Americans.

So, this you were in the American zone?

Yes, I'm sorry, English zone.

English zone.

English zone.

Was it a very large camp where there are a lot of displaced persons there?

There was probably close to 2000 and you know where I'm speaking thinking back, you know, my mind is really working going ahead and backward and but it's okay.

Were you able to to find people from all over various cities in Europe at this displaced persons camp?

Well, there were a few people there and I never forget this incident. One day I was walking in Bergen-Belsen with a friend of mine by the name of Wiesel, a cousin of Eli Wiesel. I don't remember now his first name and while I'm walking I saw a man walking on the street that he said, Fishel, Fishel was his name. I said, Fishel this man is familiar to me. I think I know who this man is. So, I walk over and I stop him and I spoke to me Yiddish, of course. Are you Oscar? He looks at me, Oscar who? Well, I don't know your last name. But are you Oscar? No, I'm not. I said, why are you afraid? Why are you not telling me the truth? You are Oscar. What do you know about Oscar?

I said Oscar one in one camp during the night when you were the lageraltester I went to the washroom and when you saw me, you hit me, and you said can't you see the Nazi up there? He's gonna kill you. That was one incident. The second was do you remember when they hung a Jew and they called you out to kick the bench? Yes, I do remember. Oscar, that was me. He took me around and he cried bitterly He says to me Leo help me. What can I do for you? You know who the people feel toward the capos because they think every capo was it was terrible. It's not true. I help you. So he and I walked over to the Central Committee and I told them who he was a capo and my name is Leo Fettman and this is what this man did in this camp so we they wrote a paper a a, with an orderly the lawyer and I signed it, and he has this paper. This man lives in Israel I believe little Oscar.

What was his last name?

I have no idea. No idea.

But he survived the war?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Very interesting, very interesting. Then how long were you in this displaced persons camp?

I was in Bergen-Belsen for four years Waiting waiting, for my turn to get out.

When you were in Bergen-Belsen, did you have any opportunity to go into the actual city?

Outside of the camp. Yes, then next city was Celle C, C-E-L-L-E, I, we went many times. And also in Hanover, Hanover was a large communiity, German community, and in Hanover I attended music conservatory and I went there once a week

How was your feeling for the German people in these two cities in Germany?

Well, you will have to clarify your question. I ask me how my feeling was to work the German people or toward the Nazis. There's a different. Maybe that time I didn't feel it, but that is a big different. Many people take the German people under the Nazi umbrella. It is so unfair. It's like when a Jew commits a crime. They don't say Leo Fettman committed the crime, the Jews. So, I'm quite upset when they say all the Germans are Nazis, that's not true. So how I felt toward the Nazis?

At that time, I felt like I felt toward the American people. That's a very strong statement. What am I saying here? If you are able to help the people and you are not helping, this was a free country America was a free country why didn't they do something? Why didn't they blew up the tracks in Auschwitz and many, many other things? They didn't.

So I feel and when I say American people, I am NOT speaking about the average American I'm speaking of the government who was in charge. They had opportunities to help the Jews. If they didn't they are guilty of murder. If I see a murder takes place outside and I look outside the window and I see what's happening there if I am silent I am guilty of murder. People asked me, matter of fact just yesterday I spoke in a large high school Can you forgive the Nazis?

Can you forget it? Forget? Never. I'm not permitted to forget it. Can you forgive the Nazis as the 50 years past so far I couldn't. Maybe the time will come maybe tomorrow. I will be able to for to forgive him. But if I do I can forgive him only what they did to me. But I have no right whatsoever to forgive the Nazis what they did to my parents because if you hurt the person, you must ask forgiveness the person whom you hurted. So, in other words, no forgetting and no forgiving.

You mentioned that you were in this displaced persons camp for four years.

Yes.

During this time, how did you feel about the religion? You know after what you had seen and gone through from the time you left your home.

I think I remain as religious as I was before, and I think I became a little better human being. Now I asked myself this question many many times why do I have to suffer, suffer, in order to become better human beings? But I became. But I had a problem, when I came to Canada, finally, I wanted to commit suicide. I couldn't live with myself. So, I went to a rabbi in Montreal and I said to him, rabbi have a problem. And I believe the rabbi's name was or is if he's still around, Lowy L-O-W-Y. And I asked him, tell me rabbi, why am I alive and my parents are not?

Am I a better Jew? Am I better human being than my parents were? And he looks at me smiled and he said to me, your parents fulfilled their mission on earth you did not. Therefore, you are alive and being Leo Fettman with a little humor which I developed also in concentration camp because you had to otherwise, they would never survive. I said him, you know what rabbi? I'm going to work very slowly to fulfill my mission.

A day later. I said to myself, what was this rabbi saying? I didn't fulfill my mission? What is my mission? And I was searching and searching and searching. Finally, I found my mission and least all of them. When I read the first book from the professor who teaches now at a Northwestern University in Chicago, Professor Arthur Butz. He came with it his first book. The Holocaust never happened, when I saw this, I was outrageous.

Oh I said to myself I have my first mission and that happened but some 40 years ago. That since then I speak all over about the Holocaust and about the Jewish religion and at average, annually, I speak between 80 and 100 places.

That was I began forty years ago, and I'm still doing it and my second mission is to educate people that what can happen when we care only about ourselves. It says in the Bible in Hebrew וְאָהַבְתָּ לְרֵעֲךָ כָּמוֹךָ love thy neighbor as thyself. I was searching to find what does it say love thy Jewish neighbor or love your black neighbor or love your Christian neighbor or your Muslim neighbor? It does not say. It says love thy neighbor another human being is my neighbor and this is what my message is to teach people to love your neighbor and I'm trying to create for the past 40 years a beautiful human orchestra.

You know what an orchestra is? A orchestra with different musical instruments and I'm trying very, very hard to create a beautiful human orchestra. Jew and non-Jew black and white and I'm getting there, but I have a long way to go. But I cannot do it by myself. I need people like you to help me. To create this beautiful human orchestra and this is what my mission is and this is what I will do as long as God will give me strength.

Let me ask you going back to the displaced persons camp You were there the four years and during that period you mentioned that you wanted to go to three different places What were the places that you?

Israel, Canada, and the United States.

Was Israel your first choice?

Yes, it was and and America, United States was the second and Canada was the third.

And you were accepted to go where?

Canada.

And would you describe that for me, your leaving of the displaced persons camp to go to Canada?

I waited for a long, long time and I went to the person who was responsible for taking taking us out helping us out. I went to him. I said to him, listen I was talking about the Jewish people there who went through concentration camp.

I said listen, I'm here already almost four years. I want get out. Wait for your turn. What do you mean me wait for my turn? There are people who just came six months ago, and they left already. And I was yelling at him. At the meantime when I was yelling at him there was an elderly person a Hungarian by the name of Mr. Winkler W-I-N-K-L-E-R and he said to me after you will be through with this gentleman, I want to talk to you. Okay, so we made an appointment, and he said to me, tomorrow a transport is going I am on the transport, he said yeah, if you can get on this train, or somewhere, I help you.

So they went to the train station and a friend of mine by the name of Gelberger Sanyi Gelberger S-A-N-Y-I Gelberger G-E-L-B-E-R G-E-R And I said to him, Sanyi, we are going to the train station. But we are not in the transport. Don't worry about it. We'll see what we can do. The transport left the, the DP camp to the train station and I said to Sanyi, let's go. Where are we going? Just come with me. And we went you know; it was nobody stopped us. You can walk on the street. And I was waiting for the train. And the same person who was talking to me in the camp saw me said, what are you doing here? It's not your business. You're not going on this train. I ignored him. They went on the train and when they almost closed all the doors, I said to Sanyi, let's go in this boxcar. And of course, a person, the British guard saw me.

He said, where are you going? Oh, he said I have to see somebody there. Because he knew I was not in the transport. You have your paper? I have to see somebody. We are on the train all of a sudden. We are there. While the train is going, this fellow who was the leader of this group came into this state, the train, and he saw me there and my friend and he tried to push me off the train and he was successful to push me near the door. Near the door. And I said to Sanyi, hold on to the rails, hold on fast.

Reel number four interview with cantor Leo Fettman. Cantor, you were mentioning you came to Canada. Can you take the story from there?

I went to rabbinical college in Montreal because my education was interrupted. So, I had to make a living. And I figured, what shall I do to make a living? So I became a tailor. I figured this is not bad for a Jewish boy. So I was working in a clothing factory for eight years. And at night, I mean every night after work, I went to rabbinical college to Yeshiva where I studied, continued my education. After eight years, I graduated from rabbinical college as a Cantor and as a Rabbi. And I had my first position in Canada in North Bay, Ontario for four years. And then my papers came through from the United States. And finally I came to this country.

Were you ordained a Rabbi?

Yes.

As well as a Cantor?

Yes.

And then you came to this country, what year was that Cantor?

1960.

1960. And where did you settle in this country?

When I came first, it was during the High Holidays and I settled in Montreal. We talk about the United States, not Canada. I settled in Gary, Indiana because I had four uncles there who came here before the war. And I was in Gary for a few, not too long, maybe a few months. And then I had my full-time position as spiritual leader, Cantor Rabbi, and I moved to Madison, Wisconsin. And I lived in Madison for 11 years. And then I saw an ad in the paper that Omaha, Beth Israel is looking for a Cantor. It was almost three times the size of Madison, I figured, it's not a bad place, let's try it.

So I came here and I was a Cantor, not a Rabbi, a Cantor for 18 years. And I retired three years ago. And since then I retired three more times.

You've been called back.

I've been called back.

And you've also served as the Rabbi.

Yes.

At times.

Yes. And since I retired, I have a position for the high holidays. I go to Hawaii. So I'm the Rabbi and the Cantor there for the Jewish High Holidays.

In what city in Hawaii?

Kona. It's on the big island.

And you're the Rabbi and Cantor for the High Holidays.

Right. See, I was thinking about it. I didn't know what to do. So, they twisted my arm. So, but you have to take the bitter with the sweet, so I took it.

So you go there and you spend, how long?Two weeks or so?

Two weeks, yes. And for the past three years, we were there already five times. We just came back three weeks ago, and we are going back December 11th for five weeks. I will be teaching there.

You're teaching children?

Both children and adults.

In a Jewish education?

Well, not only, I would like to put it this way. Because I'm not teaching about Judaism only. I teach about humanity, teach about God, and teach of how to be Hebrew, and many, many things. I became all of, I mean, a self- self-appointed psychologist or a, anyways, whatever I'm doing, I'm successful and I'm happy. And I feel that I'm doing my mission.

Have you had an effect on the congregation in Hawaii?

Very much so. The congregation consists of 70 or 80 people. They have no synagogue. They have services once a month. They had services before I went there, once a month on Saturday morning. Now they have services every, once a month. They have services, not just services. They have a Shabbaton. They spend the entire Sabbath in the synagogue. They have the services in a hotel. And I found out last year that they have no Jewish cemetery. So two Jews died since then, and they're buried in a mixed cemetery. So I try to talk to them to have a cemetery, a Jewish cemetery. It took me one year. We worked together with the people there. And finally we purchased a lot, and now we have a Jewish cemetery. And when I was there two months ago, we dedicated the Jewish cemetery. So we have one. And there are people who are following the Jewish tradition gradually because they have no education. Whatever their business, they have no Jewish education. And so some of them observed the Sabbath slowly.

Do you have children there that you're teaching also?

Yes, we do. I trained two boys there to become Bar Mitzvah last year. And every week we had lessons. How? I was here and they are there, through telephone, through fax, and they called me every Sunday. And I listened to them. I corrected them. Tapes, they went back and forward. And they became the first Bar Mitzvah to get one week apart. So I was there for the Bar Mitzvah.

That has to make you very proud.

Yes.

To see the results of what your efforts have been.

That's right.

Very, very good.

And I'm not through with my mission yet, because I have to live 150 years to fulfill my mission.

And are you active in the synagogue today in Omaha?

Very much so.

In what capacity?

Well, right now I'm in the capacity of acting Rabbi, because we have no Rabbi right now.

And this is a large congregation?

Yes, we have close to 400 families. So I accepted it reluctantly, with the hope that they will find the Rabbi pretty soon. So retirement has been very relaxing now. If I would know really that retirement would be so good going to Hawaii, I would have done it 15 years ago.

Very happy to hear that. Omaha then has become your home.

Yes.

And you've been very active in the Holocaust studies and so on over these years in lecturing.

Yes, I am.

You say you've been...

Mostly to non-Jews.

To non-Jews.

Mostly, yes.

And about your experiences, as well as the entire Holocaust experience?

That's correct. And a matter of fact, next Wednesday, I will be teaching the Holocaust in Temple Israel.

What, an adult education?

No, that's, I believe, seventh graders.

Seventh graders?

Yeah.

That's here in Omaha.

Here in Omaha.

Here in Omaha.

And your response to the non-Jewish community has been, how good?

It's really so hard to explain, but you really have to be there. Or you have to see hundreds and hundreds of letters that I receive from students and teachers.

Commenting about your presentation?

Commenting, yes. And they are called... That's a proof that they call me back year after year after year. If I wouldn't, if my presentation would be meaningless. I don't think they would call me back.

So this has enabled you to relive your experiences and recall many of the events that have taken place.

Matter of fact, just this morning, things came back to me that I couldn't remember before, while I was talking to you. Actually, I was looking at you, but I was in Auschwitz while talking to you. I was in Hungary. I was in Canada. I was in all over and looking at you.

Has the experience been traumatic for you, or has it been a rewarding experience?

In the beginning, it was quite difficult, and I realized I have to speak. And I will never forget my first presentation it was in a large church in Canada, and it was called the First Congregational Church, and probably a couple thousand people. And the minister publicized that I'm going to speak of who I am, and people were outside. And I was standing on the pulpit, it was high there, and while I was talking to them, I had a paper in the front of me, and I looked down all the time, maybe for an hour, an hour and a half. When I was through, then I asked them, would you like to have a copy of my presentation? Yeah. And I picked up a piece of paper, nothing on it. That time, I couldn't face the people to look at them while I'm talking.

Isn't that amazing? It's brought back a lot of good memories, a lot of unpleasant memories.

One experience I had here in Omaha, when I spoke in one church, and one person from the audience asked me, you're a kike?

And I didn't know what a kike is. So, I asked the minister, what's a kike? So, he told me, he said, sir, yes, I am a kike, And you are worshipping a kike. He sat down. Two days later, I had a call from this gentleman, Cantor Fettman, I would like to meet with you. Who are you? He told me, I'm the one who mentioned a kike. I would like to meet with you. About what? I really would like to meet with you. Okay, would you mind if the minister will be there too? No, not at all. So we met, and the first statement is that, Cantor Fettman, I would like to become a Jew.

I look at him, what? You would like to become a kike? What made the change? When you told me that I worship a kike, I wanted to know about the Jewish faith, and I was reading, there are a lot in the last two days, and I really want to help the Jews, and I want to become Jewish. I look at him smiling, I said, you really want to help the Jews? Yes, then I give you an easier way. Be a good Christian.

What was his comment after that?

No, but he thanked me and apologized.

That's amazing. That truly is. Through all these experiences, Europe, growing up in Europe pre-war, the war period, the displaced persons camp, Canada, the United States, what is your, what do you live with that you learned during that period, above all else, to make you the kind of person you are today?

Will you clarify? You see, my English isn't as good as you think it is. Clarify it a little bit.

This obviously has had an impact on your life, your lifetime experiences, and it's made you a better person, I believe, for this. What have you been able to give to the world?

I'm trying to open the eyes of the people, all people. There are 11 major religions in the world, major ones, and we all worship the same God. The difference is, we reach this one God through different channels, through different channels, the same God. And I'm trying to teach the people, because I happen to be Jewish. I use a different channel. There's no reason that they should hate me. So in other words, I'm teaching brotherly love. So this is your basic, and I'm quite successful.

Can you sum up for me what message do you have?

When you see an injustice done to any human being, don't be silent. Use your most powerful weapon, which is your lips. People listen. People listen to you. So don't just ignore an injustice. And don't be afraid that the majority will disagree with you. The majority is not always right. Do what you think is right. And you have a mission also. I don't know how long I will be living. Maybe another 15, 20, or 30 years, I don't know. But it will be your responsibility, especially young people, to pick up where I left off, to teach the world brotherhood.

Cantor, on behalf of the survivors of the Shoah Visual History Foundation. I would like to thank you for allowing us to come into your home to interview you and for the message that you've been able to deliver us. Thank you.

It was my pleasure being here. Thank you very much.

Cantor, you mentioned that when you were in the Hausdorff camp you were injured, can you show me that injury and describe it for me?

Yes, I can.

And how did that happen?

I was transferred from one place of work to another. And this place was called Chemishewerke, which was known as a punishment group. And when we arrived there, I helped the Nazi to saw some wood, and he had this long saw with two handles. And while I was doing this, he hit me several times. And finally, I got sick and tired of this hitting, and I said to him, I was 19 years old when you Nazis took me away from my home. I was a student in a college, in a rabbinical college. However, your job, your profession is a woodchopper. And I didn't eat today. And you ate three times today, and I used the word, and said, and du hast gefressen dreimal. You fressed like an animal eats. And he became angry, he picked up one of the sticks, and he hit me. And that was the result, and he broke my leg.

And you had surgery on it?

I had several surgeries after the war in Hungary. And at one point, they wanted to amputate my leg because they couldn't save it. So finally, they did. Of course, which I mentioned before, my left leg is shorter than my right. If you watch my shoes, this one here is normal. This one here has a lift. Every time I buy a pair of shoes, I have to have a lift.

Because of the injury?

Because of the yeah, because my left leg is shorter. So it's still better to have a shorter leg than no leg. And of course, here, this one here, I was hit the very first day when I went into camp. when we are coming back from work, we found on the highway boiled potatoes and baked potatoes. So, we picked them up, and we put them inside our jacket. And words came from the front row. Don't pick it up. It's a trick. It's a trick. But when you're hungry, you pick it up. So, we picked up the potatoes and put them under our jacket. When we arrived in the camp, we found ourselves in the center of Nazis. And the Nazis said, hande hoch, lift up your arm. 20 of us, approximately 20 of us, we lift up our arm and the potatoes went down. And then he said to us, you see the circle here? We will do this one here.

And he showed us with his stick. And while we are doing this one, you have to get out from the circle. Dead or alive. And we tried to get out. And I got out. Several of them were killed. They hit them on the head. And this is when I was hit. We had physical marks and mental marks, which we will never be able to erase.

Those were my grandparents, my mother's father and mother. My grandfather's name was Eliezer Weiss. And my grandmother's name was Hinde Weiss. Hinde Weiss was murdered in Auschwitz. There is a story about my grandmother. My grandmother came to America in 1940. She had her four sons, and they convinced her. So she was here for about six months, and she came back to Hungary because she couldn't live with their sons because their sons were no longer observant. So she said, I'm going back. And she came back to Hungary, and she ended up in Auschwitz.

That's an amazing story. Where was this photo taken?

It was taken in Hungary.

In Hungary. Do you remember when?

I have no idea.

Where did you get this photograph?

When we came back to Hungary, our neighbors had several photographs from our family and from other Jewish families. And this is one of them that we found. My grandfather died in 1924, and I am named after him. So the picture had to be taken a long time ago.

This picture is my mother before she was married and her father. And my mother always wanted to have a picture of her father, but her father refused because many religious Jews don't want their picture to be taken. So she found a plan. Her father was working in a mill. And when he came home, he was working on the street. My mother arranged with a neighbor to have a chair outside the street. So when she went to meet her father and she said to him, you are tired. Why don't you sit down a little bit? No, I'm not tired. Please sit down a little bit. So he sat down, and the picture was taken. And you can even see that his shoes are white from the flour.

So this is the only picture that we have from my grandfather. This picture is my father and my mother. My father's name was Jakab Fettman, J-A-K-A-B. My mother's name was Fanny. This picture was not taken together. And we came home after the war. We found a few pictures, and this was the best one, so they put them together.

This is my sister, Margit, M-A-R-G-I-T. This picture was taken before she was married. And she was taken also to Auschwitz with her three children, and they were all murdered. This is my brother, Sandor, S-A-N-D-O-R. We were together in the concentration camp for a while, and then one day there was a raid. American plane flew over the camp, and they dropped a bomb, and many Jews and Nazis were killed. This is my father and my brother. This picture was taken about five minutes after we got off the train in Auschwitz. The Nazis took pictures constantly. After the war, I saw many, many books with pictures, and I came across this picture, and when I saw this, of course, I recognized my father and my brother. And I went to Chicago, where my brother lived. I had another brother, and I told my brother, I told him, I said, open this book.

Look over the pages. And he was looking over the pages, and he passed this picture. He stopped for the split second and went on. I said to him, Denny, try again. He did it three times. Then I asked him, Denny, don't you know who this is? Of course I do. So why did you skip by? And Denny said, I was not in Auschwitz, and I don't know how you feel about it, so I didn't want to hurt you more.

Did your father or brother survive?

No, they didn't.

They didn't survive.

This picture was taken about six years ago when the synagogue made a banquet for us, and we called it the Bar and Bat Mitzvah celebration. We were here for 13 years at Beth Israel, and it was our Bar Mitzvah year. And what I'm wearing there, this is the robe that I wear during services, the cantoria robe. And my wife, her name is Annette, she happens to be a sculptor.

Does she do a lot of work, religious-type work, or just?

Yes, she does. And she's working at Bellevue University.

This picture was taken after we got married. When I took a position in Madison, Wisconsin, then they asked me, tell me something, what's your family? And I said, we are married six months, and we have six children. Of course, this is all my second marriage. On my lap is our youngest daughter, Rachel, who lives in Israel. And next, there's a young boy, Jack, lives in New York. Behind me, our son, Martin, lives in Phoenix. Next to my son, Martin, is Aviva, lives in New York. And next to her is my former girlfriend. And underneath is my daughter Miriam. And next to Miriam is Renana.

This is my wife, Annette. We are going to celebrate our wedding anniversary, December 9th, 33rd. And we still talk to each other. And we are still friends.

And Annette, how has these years been for you, living with all these memories that your husband has carried?

Well, at first it was hard, because he came from such a different background than I did. But we have a wonderful life now. And his experiences have affected my creative work, my sculpture, and my painting. So I think that's important.

So we decided we are going to stay together for a long, long while.

Good. And this has been a wonderful marriage, hasn't it?

Yes. It's made life worthwhile. Matter of fact, when I marry someone, being a Cantor, my wish is always a young couple. I hope you two will be as happy as my wife and I are.

And I know that you are. Thank you.

[laughing]