Bea Karp Shoah Foundation Testimony Part 2

This is take number two with Beatrice Karp. You were talking before about being on the train and seeing, did you actually see people being shot or you heard that?

I saw, I heard the shots. And I, I saw some of the people climb out of the windows. And then the train, it kept right on going. And it went for a while and then it stopped. And it stopped on the border of France and Germany.

And soon, we heard a voice over the loudspeaker saying quite a few things but two things I do remember: One was, if you have any money on you, get rid of it. If you disobey orders, you will be shot. Well, my mother and there were some other people I noticed, they tried to hide money on their person anyhow. But when I saw what my mother was doing, I was petrified, and I screamed at her. And I'm sure she was, I know she was terribly surprised because in those days, you never raise your voice to your parents. And she's, and I still remember her saying to me, I guess everybody has heard you, so here go take the money and get rid of it. So, I went and put it down the toilet. It wasn't even that much money; it was just a little wad. And as I was coming back on the train and along the corridor, I happened to look into the different compartments, and I noticed that the Nazis, true to their words, were searching everyone. And if they did find anything on anyone, they took them off the train and then they lined up all those people, and they shot them. Now I didn't see it, my mother took my face and, and put it in her lap. She didn't want me to watch.

And then the train went on and it was a long journey, I remember. It must have taken about at least two days, if not longer I don't remember exactly the time. I, the only thing that I remember about it is that we didn't get anything to eat, but worst of all, we didn't get anything to drink. And I remember being very, very thirsty.

We arrived at our location and they took us off the train and put us onto trucks. And then they took us to the concentration camp. But the first time when I saw that concentration camp, it gave me a most dismal feeling. I still can see it to this day. Because first of all, you notice the barbed wire all around, and then the rest of it looked all brown, gray and black to me because the roofs of the barracks were made out of black tar paper. The barracks themselves were built out of wood. There was no grass anywhere because it was in the fall. And when we got off the trucks, the first thing that I noticed how muddy it was, and you just sank into that mud. And it was hard to walk because then you had mud on your shoes.

They separated the man and the women, and we had to say goodbye to our dad, even though I know he wasn't that far. The man's camp was not that far away. But still, we didn't see him on a daily basis. And then they put the women in a barrack, in a big, huge barrack and there, they were searched again. And this time it was for gold. If you had any gold fillings or gold clowns or if you had any gold jewelry, they took the jewelry, they pulled your teeth. And my mother, she wore pierced earrings. They were golden hoops, and they pulled those earrings right off her earlobes and to this day, I can hear her cry out with pain.

And then we were assigned barracks. I forgot how many people to a barrack, we might have been like maybe 25 to 30 people. And we were also given mattresses. Well, the mattress was very light, and the reason for that is that it was just filled with straw, and I was able to carry that mattress. My mother and my sister and I, we had to share one bed. And I don't believe that my mother ever had a decent night's sleep. But we were lucky than, luckier than some people because some people didn't even get a bed. They slept on the straw.

And one of the first things that I noticed going into the barrack was a scale, like a scale you would find at the produce department, and I was wondering about it. But not for too long because once a day, they would throw one loaf of bread into the barrack and that loaf of bread had to be divided up amongst all of us. So, one person was chosen, and it worked all right for a little while, but in that camp, people didn't get enough food and they were starving. So, after a while, in order to do the dividing, it became more difficult. The person, the woman had to be more accurate because if one person would receive just a little bit more than somebody else, the other woman would jump on her and try to get this bread away from her. But when you're hungry, it hurts, and you'll do anything, anything to have a little bit more bread. Also, it was hard for her to do the dividing because we didn't have any utensils. I never saw spoon, fork or knife because we didn't, the only other thing that we used to get to eat would be three times a day, a bowl of soup, if you can call it that. And that we just used to drink because there was nothing much in it, sometimes a little bit of greenery.

One day, though, I was very lucky. I found just one little piece of meat. It was very little, but I still remember that piece of meat. I still remember the way it looks, how it tasted, how it smelled, what it felt like in my mouth. And I ate it. I didn't tell anybody. I was afraid that somebody would take it away from me. We used to talk about food. We used to dream about food. It became very, very important to us.

As a matter of fact, once in a while, I can only remember maybe two, three times, this lady, who was from Switzerland, came to our camp. And she used to bring with her triangles of Swiss cheese. Wow, you can imagine when you don't have enough food, how these triangles of cheese, what they meant for us. And, and I say that she came from Switzerland because she used to sing for us, and she used to yodel. Well, the only place you yodel I think is in Switzerland, and she probably came from, through the Red Cross. And so, she would give us these triangles of, and this was just for the children. Only the children received that, not the grown-ups because we used to have, we used to, the children would gather in the back and we used to play games there. As a matter of fact, I learned just about all of my board games from those times. And so, she would hand out those triangles of cheese but there again, the trouble was we were starving, we were hurting, and that little bit of cheese was like, it was, it was like she was teasing us with it. It wasn't enough. So. the older children, the stronger children would take away from the younger ones. And one day, I took the cheese away from my own sister. That's how desperate we got. And to this day, my sister's, that's one thing she will, does remember. She does remember that I took that piece of cheese away from her. And I used to resent that lady that used to come because I used to say to myself, now why, why doesn't she tell the world how bad things are here? I could, I did not understand it.

And to tell you truth to this day, I don't understand that she knew in what conditions we lived because the camp didn't have there was no sanitary conditions. I don't even remember seeing any running water. The way I remember we used to wash is my mother used to catch some rain water in a bucket, and I remember washing with that, but I don't remember any running faucets. Naturally, a lot of people got sick. People suffered from dysentery, and I remember long lines at the toilets, and those toilets if they weren't something. You had to go, they were built out of wood, they were like I think in the middle of the camp. And we had to go up steps because they were not flush toilets, they were just you know, they had big, round containers and, and these were our toilets. And the flies in the summer, it was awful. And many people became very, very sick.

The people were desperate. There were uprisings. There was talk about going, going, getting out of the camp and escaping over the Pyrenees into Spain. And I remember myself at night time urging my mother to do so, but my mother was getting weaker and weaker and she had a terrible cough. And looking back, maybe she had tuberculosis, I don't know, TB, because it was quite prevalent. But she always used to say, I don't have the strength, I cannot go. Because of the talk, I always used, I did listen to grown-ups talk because like I said, we never used to, we couldn't ask questions. Or if we did ask questions, they would say, don't concern yourself with it, it's nothing for you.

And so, I used, I knew where the man's camp was, just by the talk of the grown-ups. And so, one day, I said to my sister, let's go visit our father, please? And she said, you're crazy.

This is the first time you had seen him?

I hadn't seen him. I was very homesick for him. And I hadn't seen him in maybe, we must have been in that camp for I don't know, maybe six months or so. So, I was very homesick for him. And so, when I told my sister that I want to go and see him, she says, you're crazy. And at first, she didn't want to come with me; she was afraid. And I said to her, listen all they can tell us is no, that they won't let us go.

So, I took her hand, and we went to the entrance of the camp and right away, the guard came out of his guard house, and he asked us, where are you going? And I took, must have told him, and I don't remember the exact conversation, but what I do remember is that I became angry at him and I kicked him on his boot, and I said to him, tu sale cochon, which was French for, you dirty pig. And I take a hold of my sister's hand and I said to her, let's go out of here and just don't look back because if you look back, he might shoot us. So, we just marched out of the camp. I still remember marching down that road and we found the man's camp and we asked for our father and they showed us where he was. And he was surprised and overjoyed in seeing us.

And we had a good visit, except for one incident. For some reason, they were giving everyone eggs. They were eggs in the shell and raw. And I could hardly believe it because even in Germany, we, we stopped eating eggs because you couldn't get a hold of them anymore and everything was rationed. So, I was so surprised, and I was so happy because I had always loved eggs and I could hardly wait to share this egg with my dad. He opens up the egg and lo and behold, it had a blood spot in it. And I thought and I knew what that meant because an Orthodox Jew does not eat an egg with a blood spot in it. But I thought to myself, oh, he'll make an exception. After all, we're starving. And I thought, oh, he's going to share that egg. He just has to, and I could taste that egg already. But to my utter surprise, he takes the egg and throws it against the wall of the back. And to this day, I can see this yellow ooze coming down. And I go and make a run for the wall to lick it off. I was so desperate. I wanted that egg. But before, just before I got to the wall, I happened to turn around and look at my dad and what I saw in his face, because of it, I couldn't do it. And I stamped my foot in frustration. I was so frustrated, and I started crying and so he took me in his arms, and he took my sister and his arms and hugged us and he had tears in his eyes. And I was angry with my dad and I didn't understand. And, but he managed to calm me down and that's what I remember about that incident.

And I don't even remember how we got back to the women's camp, but we did. And my sister, she was younger than I and also because of it, she didn't know quite how to fend for herself. I think I was, I was kind of a rebel I was angry. I was very, very angry. I was an angry child, you might say. And it gave me a certain amount of, that being angry gave me a certain amount of strength, and I would fight for myself and I didn't let too many people step over me, I learned that very young. And so I, for some reason, my sister, she was very thin, she was so thin that she could hardly walk anymore. But I still had a lot of strength. I think, I remember once we went, we knew where some of the food was kept and some of us kids and I was always good when I have other people helping me, then I can be very, very strong. And I remember we raided some of the food. I still remember we were on the roof of a barrack and we somehow managed to fry parts of the [?] and somehow get in there and, and get a little bit of food. We used to do things like that. But my sister, she never did those things and therefore she was much weaker than I. And she also became very sick and she had sores. We had lice, we had lice in our hair, lice on our clothing and then she would scratch. And she had sores all over her body and at night, when my mother would take off her clothes to get her ready for bed, she would just scream bloody murder. And so, one day, my mother said to me, you know your sister is not going to last very long anymore. I have to send her away. And I didn't want my sister to go because not only was she my sister, she was also my friend. And I knew that I would miss her terribly. So, I was very upset when I had to say goodbye to her. So, then it was just my mother and I in that camp.

Did you understand where your sister had gone?

At that time, I didn't. I didn't know where she had gone. And that was also part of my insecurity because you, like I said, you never asked questions because you knew you wouldn't get answers. So that again, gave me an insecure feeling. Where's my sister? Where did she go? So, then it was just my mother and I and we stayed at that camp for a few more months and then we were taken to a different concentration camp.

The name of the camp where you had been was?

Gurs. G-u-r-s. And then they took us to Rivesaltes and that's spelled r-i-v-e-s-a-l-t-e-s.

Was it near the camp where you had been?

Not actually, not. The Gurs was more, it was a little further, it was closer to the Pyrenees. And then the other camp, it was more by an ocean, I remember. And it, because it was sandy, very sandy, I remember playing in the sand.

Was it also in France?

It was also in France. It was also southern France and, and there, it was more or less the same thing. It was dirty. I think I was even hungrier because I went to the garbage can, so I was in competition with the mice and the rats. And ate food that didn't, wasn't good for me, poisoned me and I came down with Cholera, at least I think that's what it was. I still remember it written on the wall like on a piece of paper, there was a piece of paper hanging on the wall and it said Cholera. And I was sick, and they put me in a room by myself because I guess it's contagious. And I was sick I guess for a long time. I don't remember too much about that period.

The only thing that I do remember is one day, my father came to visit me, but he could not come into the room. He could only speak to me outside through the window. And so we had a good visit I remember. And I didn't realize that that was the last time that I would ever see my dad again. But he told me during the visit that he was being transferred to Marseilles and that I that I should be a good child. I always heard that from him: Be a good child. Be good to your mother.

I got better and then my mother came one day and took me back to the barrack. And on the way to the barrack, she said to me, you know it's time for you to leave me. You're not that well and you're very weak and you won't be able to last here much longer, so we have to say goodbye. And I did not want to leave my mother. First of all, she was the only security that I had left. And I didn't know at that time where my father was, even though he told me the name, it didn't mean anything to me. I didn't know where my sister was. And even though we were suffering, I knew the conditions were terrible, I still didn't want to leave my mother. I didn't want to leave my friends. I didn't want to leave the people that I was used to and surrounded with because to me, that was the only form of security that I had. So, I gave my mother, I know, a terrible time. But one day, she took me to an area where there was a truck and I had to say goodbye to her. I think it was the most difficult thing I ever did. Excuse me. Because I felt very much just alone. They put us on the truck, and we were about, oh, 15, 20 children, drop us out of the camp and into the countryside.

When you say they, who, who was, who was they?

They was a, they were, it was an organization. It was a truck driver really and a lady. And it wasn't a, it was a French Jewish organization. And they are still in existence today, by the way. And they took out as many children as possible from the concentration camps in France. And they had these children homes all across the southern, central southern part of France. These homes, they were all chateaus. For some of them, I imagine, they paid for some of them, and for others, they were abandoned. They were not very good-looking places. They were big, and there used to be maybe around 100 children in a home. But these homes weren't safe either. They used to be raided by the Nazis.

But while we were there, we learned many things. We learned how to speak French. We had to speak French. They insisted on it. We also grew vegetables. I learned a little bit about gardening. We used to call flowers. And the boys sometimes had to make furniture because we didn't, these, some of these places were almost empty when we arrived. And as girls, we used to be in the kitchen. We used to help cook. We used to peel potatoes and carrots, and I learned how to do that. And we also learned how to, for instance, if we would ever get lost anywhere, how to help ourselves, how to eat certain vegetation, the difference between poison mushrooms and mushrooms that are not poison, even certain grasses. And they told us how to make fires if we needed to make a fire, and they taught us many things. It was a very, I mean it was an insecure way of life, but it also was a very, I should say, it was, it was a learning experience in many respects.

You said it was a French Jewish organization?

Yes.

What's the name of the organization?

OSE. In French, it's Oeuvre de Secours Aux Enfants.

And they were all French people that were in this organization?

Yes, the ones that I encountered were French.

Were there other children who came out of the camp with you that you knew?

Yes, I probably knew quite a few of them. I, you know, you, as a child, you, at least I didn't pay that much attention to that. But yes, they were, sure, they were, yeah, I knew the other children.

But at that point you had been separated from your sister and

That's right. Yes.

Your mother and your father?

Yes, and I, I was, those first few days, I’m sure I was very disoriented.

Did you feel in those, when you were in those chateaus, did you feel safe or was it an insecure feeling?

It was still an insecure feeling because those chateaus were raided by the, by the Nazis. They were French Nazis, but they were raided, and so we were constantly moved from one place to another. Many times, going back to the same children's home, but I remember counting and I was moved 14 different times.

And during those days too, I used to get letters for my parents, and or I should say, they were postcards. And sometimes they were, these postcards, they were read by the Nazis and sometimes there were black lines through certain sentences. But for the most part, my mother knew, and my father knew about it so they didn't, they did not lie to us of anything of importance. It was usually, how are you? I hope that you are studying your lessons well. I hope that you're eating enough and things like that, or that you, you have made some friends and you remember this one or that one. They would write about some of the children still left at the camp but that's about it.

Since we were moved also all the time, one day I came to this particular home, and a little girl comes in carrying a blanket for me. And I look at her and she looked at me, and it took us just a few seconds to realize that this was my sister. And I just couldn't get over with. I didn't recognize her right away because she had a bandage around her head, and she just looked different to me. She had filled out a little bit. And we were just overjoyed at seeing each other and after that, we just never left each other's side. And so that was something very good I, I felt then you know, at least I had my sister with me again.

We heard from our parents until 1940, late 1942 I think it was. Suddenly, we don't hear anything anymore and that was really scary. By then we had heard about there, or there were rumors about concentration camps where they killed people, and we heard about the gassing, and there were a lot of rumors. And it scared me terribly. It made me feel even more insecure. As a matter of fact, I used to go around scratching my head until one spot became completely sore and it was just out of nervousness that I did that. But I used to worry about what's going to become of us. I mean I felt that we were all alone in this world. But let's see what else can I tell you about these homes. That was, that's really about it and we stayed there until 1943.