Bea Karp Shoah Foundation Testimony Part 4

This is tape four with Beatrice Karp. You were talking about going to England and you had gone to high school for six weeks and then it was too difficult for you.

Yes.

Did you ever go back to school?

I didn't go back to school until I came to the United States and then I had to go back.

So how did you find your way around London? Were you able to read in English?

I don't know. Yes, I, I learned fast. As, as a matter of fact, the English language seemed very easy to me compared to the French language and I did learn it much faster.

What, what do you remember about that time? Was it a comfortable time for you?

It was a very comfortable time for me. I liked London very much because I came back to an Orthodox family and also, we lived amongst the (?) whom I like very much. I like their ways. I like their, they are, they're fun. I liked all the singing that they used to do, and they have an easy way about them. And it made me feel very comfortable, very secure and it gave me very much an inner happiness to be with them. And when my aunt started writing from New York that they wanted us to come to the United States, I didn't want to go. I want to stay where I was, and I felt very sad in leaving London and my aunt and uncle.

Why did you leave?

My aunts in New York said that my father's wishes were for them to take care of us if anything should happen to them, so we really didn't have a choice in the matter. And also, things were still difficult in England. It wasn't very easy, it was, being right after the war, the windows weren't even fixed in the house, not all of them, they were still broken. Food was rationed and so my aunt in England she says, you know it would be better if you would go. It would be better for your health and it just; it would be easier for you. So, we left in 1947.

And what was the name of the family that you went to, your aunt and uncle in New York?

Yes, in New York their names, my aunt's name was, one of them passed away, Berta Gottlieb and the other one was married, and her name is Flora Schmidt.

And what was your life like there?

At first it was difficult because they were not Orthodox, they were conservative and that bothered me greatly. And it was hard for me to change and I used to have many fights with them because of that. They had, they didn't have, my married aunt never had any children and here we were, I was a teenager. I was used to doing things my own way most of my life and I imagine I was very difficult on them, so it wasn't entirely their fault. But after a while, we got used to it and I had to go to school and that was not easy. I didn't want to start in elementary school, so I had to go up to the high school and take a test. And the principal said, if you pass the test, we'll let you go straight to high school. Otherwise, you will have to start elementary. Thank God I passed it and it was all right, but it was difficult. I did graduate high school and I would, I could have even gone to college if I would have wanted to, but I had met my husband to be and we wanted to get married so two weeks after graduating high school, we did get married. And

And was he American?

He was American and had always lived in New York City, but he never liked New York very much. So, after we were married, we drove his car and we, our honeymoon was going to Canada and going west. And we came to O’Neill, Nebraska. And there, he, his sister was living there, and husband and the husband was in the grocery business and so my husband started working for him.

And you lived in O’Neill Nebraska?

We lived in O’Neill, Nebraska but then we also moved to many little towns because as my brother-in-law would open up different grocery stores, my husband would go and manage these stores, and so we moved around quite a bit. Also, in the meantime, I gave birth to four daughters and I didn't, I didn't mind living in those towns except that I missed not being with Jewish people and that was rather hard for me. But in one way, it was also good for me because I found out the difference, you might say, and in some respects, it has made me very much Jewish. As a matter of fact, my whole life has made me very, very Jewish, and we had a good life though, together, my husband and I. And then when the children, when the oldest one was 12 years old, I insisted we moved to a city where there is a Jewish community, and we moved to Sioux City. And we lived there for about two years and then moved to Omaha.

When you first came to the United States both in New York and in these small towns in Nebraska, how did, did people listen to your story about what had happened to you in Europe?

Actually no. When I came to New York, nobody wanted to talk about it. In England, nobody want to talk about it. I wanted to but nobody did, and I couldn't believe it. I couldn't quite understand it and I still don't. Then because nobody wanted to listen to me, I didn't say anything anymore.

When you say nobody, not the people in your family?

Nobody, nobody because they would start crying. They just could not cope with it. Nobody could cope with it. Then when I married my husband, that's the first time, naturally he was curious, and he wanted to know so I unburdened myself to him but nobody else. And so that was that. You know, I kind of forgot about it and then came the Eichmann Trial and we lived in O’Neill at that time. Suddenly people were starting to ask me, but they also got curious. What had happened was I was, I was a bit shy and especially living amongst the non-Jews, and so my husband said to me once, you know I want you to take the Dale Carnegie course. I think that would help you a lot and I, I, do you know what the Dale Carnegie course is?

Not really.

Well, it's a course where you learn how to speak publicly if you are in business, how to be a better business person, just to better yourself. So I took this course and you had to tell stories about when you were a child in front of everybody, you know some stories. So well I had to tell about my childhood, that's the only childhood I had, and amongst these people listening to me was a teacher, and he told his wife about me. And one day, his wife asked me, would you talk about your experiences during the war? And I said, oh no I couldn't do it. So I came home, told my husband about it and he says, yes you can. I want you to. It's very, very important. And he was really the one that showed me the importance of doing something like this. So I talked the first time at a teacher's tea and I, I talked to them for about an hour and from that, the teachers asked me to come to their various schools and I’ve been busy ever since talking about it off and on.

When you first talked about it, was it difficult for you?

It was terribly difficult. I used to cry practically through the whole thing. It was awful, but you know in one way, it was good for me because by repeating it so many times, it became easier and psycho, psychologically, I think it was very good for me to not to keep all of that inside.

Is there anything else that you'd like to add that we haven't talked about? You, you were married, you talked about being married.

Yes, I was married to a wonderful man and sadly enough, he came down with cancer, and he died in 1987. And I used to go to synagogue a lot and say Kaddish and Harold, my husband now, he lost his wife six months prior to when I had lost my husband. And he was also going to synagogues and Kaddish. And I didn't really notice him until one day, he was saying his (?) and I was impressed by it, and I asked who he was and then we used to start talking to each other, saying hello and that's the way the whole thing developed.

And when were you married again?

And then we were married in 19, 1991.

And you said you have four children from your first marriage?

Yes, yes, four lovely daughters. And they are all married, and I have six grandchildren.

And you, have you gone back to Europe since the war?

Yes, several times. In 1985, my late husband wanted to take the journey that I had taken during that time, during the war years. And we did it except for the concentration camps but we went to see all the chateaus and we saw the convent. We went to Paris, to the office of the OSE. As a matter of fact, they are the ones that gave me a lot of the records that they have kept over the years. And my husband took a lot of pictures and it was an interesting trip. Nothing was quite the same as I remembered it. Everything was much smaller, but it was good for me, and in, and also it reinforced my thinking about this whole thing and my speaking because sometimes you doubt yourself, and you think, did this really happen? And because you don't have no one to talk to about your experiences because I could talk to my sister about it but she doesn't want to talk about it. So, I’m all by myself thinking about what has happened to me. And I can never say to anybody, well do you remember this, or do you remember that? And, but two years ago, this organization, this OSE organization had a reunion of all of the children they had saved from the French camps, and that's when we were able to talk to other women and say, well do you all remember? And that was a wonderful, wonderful feeling. I was able to talk to them about mutual people that we both remembered, incidents that we remembered, and it was very, very good.

Do you stay in touch with any of those children from that time or any of the people?

You know, it's a strange thing but we don't stay in touch, not really. Once in a while, but not, no not on a regular basis. We all lead separate lives. A lot of them just speak French, they don't speak English so it's very hard to communicate. Just a few speak German, but we don't, I only know one person here that went through the same thing and I’ve known her since Germany, and she lives in New York and we don't communicate that much either. I don't know why, why that is. Maybe because they're part of a past that we just as soon forget. We don't really want to remember it. And yet I know it's important that we do and that's why I do the speaking.

During the war, did you think that you would survive?

No, I, I, I was, that was part of my insecurity. I really didn't know whether I would survive or not or that we would.

Is there anything that you'd like to add that we haven't talked about?

No, I really can't think of anything. I think I told you pretty much everything. I feel that the only thing that I can say is that my past has taught me an awful lot. It has taught me how important Jewish communion life is and right now, I’m a little worried about it because I feel that we have splinted ourselves too much, and I don't think it's good to be divided. And to have such big chasm, is this the correct word? Amongst us, it's to our detriment. And I worry really about Jewish survival as we know it because of this even. I think that to me is more of a threat almost that than intermarriage even though I’m very much against that. But this is what worries me the most right now is what is going on right on amongst our Jewish people.

Well thank you very much for sharing your story with us.

Thank you. This is my father. This picture was taken in the early 1930s in Lauterbach, Germany. His name is Moritz Stern.

And how did you get the picture?

The picture was given to me by my aunts in New York after the war when we came there to New York City. This is my mother. Her name is Rosa Stern. And this picture was taken in Lauterbach, Germany in the early 1930s and it was given to me by my aunt in New York City after the war. This is a picture of my grandmother. Her name was Jeanette Gutley, and this picture must have been also taken in the 1930s early and it's also a picture of my sister and myself and it was taken in Lauterbach. This is a picture of me taken in our home in Lauterbach, Germany, when I was about two years old. This is a picture taken in Lauterbach, Germany of my sister Susie and I and it must have been like 1936 or 7. I’m on the left-hand side of the picture and my sister is on the right. This is another picture taken in Lauterbach, Germany of my sister Susie and I, and I am on the left-hand side and she's on the right. Picture was taken in France and it was after we left the concentration camp, and we were in those children's homes that they gave us new identity cards and that is also when they changed our names. This is a xerox copy of my identity card that was given to us when we were in those children homes and this the original card now is it the Holocaust museum in Washington D.C. This is the, a picture of a wedding that I was part of and I’m the second girl from the left. It was a marriage at the first chateau that I was at and the lady that's being married, her name is Vivette and she is also the one that rescued us and took us out of the concentration camp of Rivesaltes.

How did you get this picture?

And the picture, I saw it hanging in Paris while attending an OSE meeting. We were about 200 people that got together, and these are all the people that were rescued from the concentration camps in France by this organization, the OSE. And they had these pictures that were taken during those times in a room and the, the walls of the rooms were covered with pictures. And I found myself in this picture and several others but that's the only picture that they would give me. This is a picture of my marriage to Robert Pappenheimer. We were married in 1951, July 4th in New York City. And we were married for 36 years. In 1987, my husband passed away from cancer. Here I am, surrounded by my four daughters. On the right is, her name is Rosanne Pappenheimer Hornstein. She's married to Mark and has two girls, Rachel and Arielle. Then above her is Deborah Pappenheimer Sanders and she has one boy, Benjamin, and her husband's name is Arthur. Next comes Jeannie, next to her is Jeannie Sashnik and she's married to Bob, and they have two children, Leah and Michael. And after that comes Nancy, and she's married to Howard Kutler and she has one son, Danny Krantz. This is Danny Krantz, he's my oldest grandson. He's 13 years old and he lives in Omaha. This is Michael and Leah Sashnik. And Michael, he's 12 years old, and Leah is nine and they live in St. Louis. This is Rachel Hornstein, and she lives in Boston. She is eight years old. This is Benjamin Pappenheimer and he's seven years old and he lives in Des Moines, Iowa. This is our Yale Hornstein, and she is four years old and lives in Boston. This is a picture of me and my husband. We were married in 1991 in January in Omaha, Nebraska.

And his name?

And his name is Harold. I would like to introduce my daughter, Nancy Kutler.

Nancy, what has it been like for you when you've heard your mother talk about her story and her experiences in her childhood?

It's been very interesting, and it's hard to comprehend that this has happened to my mom and it's something very, it's hard to grasp.

How do you think it's affected you, being a child of survivor?

I think I look at things a little differently than most. My parents, you know, let us know that Judaism was a very important aspect in our lives and I’m glad they stressed that. And it's been very important to, you know, continue.

What, how has it made a difference in the way that you're raising your son?

I try to, you know, stress to him the Judaism, that it is important. I have a little bit of different circumstances though my son does not live with me, so he lives with his father and stepmom and they're not as, his dad is not as Jewish. So, it's from my aspect, I can only stress as much as I can.

What message do you have to, to your son and to your nieces and nephews about what your mom has been through?

You know, mom would say it'd be very important to marry somebody Jewish. She ingrained that us, in us and I would like you know for them to marry also somebody Jewish and carry on the tradition.

And what if, how is it for you to have your, your daughter here Bea, with you?

Well, it's, it's emotional to say the least. And I’m very proud of her and proud of my other daughters because they're very good people. But above all, they're very good Jewish people and they know our values, which I think are very important and I think they're trying to give those values to their children.

Have you spoken with your grandchildren about your experiences in the Holocaust?

Yes, I do. I have always been very open about it because I think it's important that they should know.

Thank you both for participating and thank you for coming.

Well thank you for doing this.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.