Interview with Tom Williams, Clarence Williams' Son

My family and I were returning to Omaha from Israel. My father was looking for a house for us to live in for a couple of years, and my girl friend Eadie Tsabari had heard that the Williams were going to be selling their house which was basically a couple streets away from them. And so, we sort of approached this in a direct way. And then my father met with you, Tom, at the house, I believe with Edie, and we were able to come to a wonderful agreement to be able to move into your home before you moved to a new place in the west part of Omaha. But what was so striking for me after we completed that deal is that you came over one day and said you know my dad was a veteran, World War II vet, and I’ve got materials that talk about his experience and the liberation of Dachau among other things. And you brought me the briefcase and we sat at the kitchen table looking out on that beautiful backyard. And you opened that briefcase with these amazing treasures inside. I had never seen a photo album with such precise writing, and your father's eloquent way of explaining his history. And then there was a little box with a bunch of letters which was also just, you know, this glimpse into his past, into your family life that you may or may not have been completely aware of Tom, but it sort of brought our work together—mine in trying to teach the lessons of the Holocaust and your father's past. So, it was completely unexpected, and we are now 21 years later meeting together. And, and Ethan I don't know, are you 21 yet? You are.

I’m almost 22. So, I am the visual representation of your relationship.

So, I just wanted to start with that because it puts into perspective, it doesn't matter how long a collection like this sits in a, in a briefcase in an attic in someone's life, it still has incredible meaning going forward. So, I want to thank both of you, and I’m so excited to bring the two of you together to have this conversation.

Wow, I don't think I have much to add. That was excellent Beth.

You have a lot to add.

Yeah, well, I, no, I, my side of the story is the same. I mean the way I remember it and because we, the thing that I remember that was weird as a non-techie is we sold the house over the internet and through the help of Beth’s dad and mom and they were in Israel and decided they wanted the house. It was, as I recall, location you wanted nearest relatives and in district 66 area, which it was, like right down the street from Oakdale, and so it was it was easy for us to do that.

And then I learned about your past. And then when I learned Beth was in Holocaust education, I thought, gee that's something my dad was seriously into. And I had grown up with these materials around me. And, and I was, you know, my dad never went to, went to college. He did, he'd finished high school and grew up in a small town, Crescent, Iowa and met my mom in Council Bluffs in high school. But he had catalogued this. I don't know how he did it honestly because he took his camera to, who takes their camera to war? I guess a number of guys did that. I wouldn't be, what I think most soldiers going to war would consider doing, but not only did he take pictures, he catalogued them all.

And Ethan, I don't know I assume you've seen the album or at least parts of the album, but the whole album is carefully chronicled with names and places and dates you know and they're in they go all the way from his pictures at Dachau to you know having wine or beer on the terrace in Italy with some army buddies. Their names are all there. I mean, I don't know how he did all that stuff. It and, and it's amazing. So, I had grown up with it. I had grown up with the Holocaust in his background and so I thought, gee this is pretty cool, like you know, I bet Beth would like to see these. But the excitement that that you and your colleagues had over it exceeded my wildest expectations.

And I guess I knew it was extremely important, but I didn't maybe know how much of a treasure it actually was. And I had worried about his legacy and his history in that part of his life just expiring in our attic somewhere. I don't have that [?] anymore, you get the point. And so to me, it was wonderful to see that there was perhaps a place for this because it was a big part of what he did after the war. And he was involved in a lot of civic activities, but one of them was speaking about his Holocaust experiences during the war, particularly to high school classes where there was even back in the 50s and beyond, there were, there were people who didn't believe that it happened. And so, he was not infrequently asked to come and give a presentation of what he had seen in person. So, it was very exciting for us to be able to do that.

And, and the oddest things kept happening between me and Beth, we would...I still remember one time. I’m going to get teared up here because I really don't think it was just serendipitous. I think it was one of those meant to be things. I know we were coming back, I used to do a lot of, a fair amount of traveling with the College of American Pathologists on committees, and I think it was in Chicago one time, you and I were on the same plane back to Omaha. And I was like hey, we saw each other, you know this is great. And I said, well we're on the same plane. And she said, well maybe we should look at our tickets, maybe we're seated next to each other, and we were. I mean how often does that happen? You know, like never. So, it's been a very interesting experience for me in my personal journey as a Christian to see how this kind of came together because I think it was something that was intended to be. And I’m deeply grateful that you all are doing what you're doing and putting it all together the way you're doing it, so that's great.

No, like Clarence's testimony is like incredibly powerful. Your father's testimony is and like even nowadays, there are still people who, you know, deny the Holocaust. And like, at least, you know, me reading his letters, seeing the photos he took, you know, that, that's primary evidence right there. These are photos almost no one's ever seen. Like these aren't made up you know. And the goal that people have to try to like insinuate that these things didn't happen, it's like here, here's the direct evidence right here. These, these were boxes that were in your attic as you said, you know, like this isn't a conspiracy It's, it's a real life thing that happened. It's, it's powerful. I had the opportunity to finally see the entire collection, I think like a month ago or something. I had seen a couple fragments, a couple photos, but I finally had the chance to see the entire photo album. And I probably spent like half an hour just, you know, scrolling through. It, you know, it was, it was, it was hard stuff looking at. I mean I, obviously there's the account, I don't know if you've had the chance to read, Clarence sent a letter to your mother very, very shortly after liberating Dachau. And that's a really hard letter to read.

That's the letter I’m most familiar with actually. And honestly, we did not, and I did not spend any, I’m ashamed to say, any significant time going through my, my dad's letters. So, I’ll learn about them from what you did because it'll probably be, probably be easier to read. And you know, you mentioned deniers of the Holocaust. There, there isn't, I don't remember why I learned this or heard it because it's been years ago, but allegedly there's a saying in the Soviet Union that in Russia, it's always difficult to predict history, and sadly we're getting the same way here in the United States now in recent events, and in fact, and in past events. So, I think that's, that's, that's a sad line but, but true.

The first question I had was, so I, I feel like I know your father relatively well, at least you know the version of him during the war, but I’m very curious to know what type of person you thought your father was, and what you thought his world view was, and like particularly after the war? I mean when you see the things that he saw, I’m sure that affected the way he saw the world quite a bit. I mean I know it would affect me a lot too, and that's why I specifically ask in this question, like how did he view humanity after you know witnessing particularly Dachau? But I mean he saw a lot more than just Dachau in the war. And when I mean, I’m sure if you ever go back through all the letters, you'll see like he, he hated the war. I mean he despised the violence. He wanted nothing more than just to return home to be with your, you know, his wife, you know more than anything. I feel he just deplored the violence, and you know saw it all as a tragedy, at least the way I, the way I read him. So yeah, I think I’d really like to hear about what you think his world view became because of the war.

Well, I did, I obviously didn't know him before the war because I wasn't here. And I should say, by the way, I’ve kind of been trying to look at some, find some of the old family artifacts we have, and I haven't found them all, but I did find yesterday some neat pictures of him and my mom when they were young that might be fun to share if you guys are interested in that.

I’d be very much interested. I know, I know what your father looks like, but I haven't seen a photo of your mother yet so.

Yeah. I’m going to get emotional again. Anyway, no, he was a very caring guy. You know, I, I think honestly, for another opinion, you might, if you can get one, there's a, there's a, actually well, I don't have one down here. There's a, a Lincoln historical book called Lincoln Looks Back. It’s primarily a photography book. And I, I think I might have told Beth this, but I ran across it quite by accident one time doing some things for the state and happened to be, I was killing some time and thumbing through it, and it had a lot of pictures, and it had pictures of Gold's, and my dad's auto store was caddy corner from Gold's. And I thought, wow maybe there's a picture, maybe in the corner or some picture of this of Gold's, I’ll get to see my dad's store which was Hank's Auto store because I worked there when I was a kid in a lot of summers. And, and I turned to, to I think it's page 62, and not only was there a picture, there's an entire chapter about my dad in a store in this book written by a guy who used to go down and hang out with, who loved cars. I think the guy's name was Dick Bezel. I’ve meant to contact him. I never did. But he mostly, the chapter is about how much he appreciated my dad doing stuff for him. He said my dad had all these great old car parts and helped him out with all his stuff and was just a great guy to work with. I think it's a neat outside look at the kind of a guy that he was. He was a very kind guy and very caring and at least as a father was very loving. He was, he and my mom were consistent churchgoers when we lived on Monterey Drive in east Lincoln. We went to Vine Congregational Church. I grew up there, and he was politically conservative. He did not like government. I still remember in the 50s, him ranting about quote-unquote graft and corruption in government. Guess what? Nothing changes, right. And, but he was not at all a person who I would say was notably bitter about the war.

I would also, I think another person that I should mention is my father-in-law because my dad was in Europe as you know. My wife Sue’s father fought in the Pacific and just was in horrible battles where enormous percentages of people in his unit were killed. He was a tank commander and raiding Pacific islands and stuff like that. And he was a very, very kind man as well. He had difficulties after the war, recovered, came home, and both of our fathers were very loyal, loving husbands and loyal to their wives. Fidelity was important to them. They were both small businessmen. My father-in-law ran Lincoln Maytag, and then my dad's business was Hank's Auto Stores, which he opened shortly after the war. And so he was an entrepreneur. He came back and started a business, and I, and it's hard to run a small business. I mean, I grew up with him worrying about it overnight on many nights when things were not going all that well.

But he was, my parents were not, to me, not at all racial. We never had racial slurs in our home. They were respectful I think of all people and he did not, the one note I made is he did not despise the German people at all. He, I think, he felt they were victims of this whole war event just like he was, you know. He didn't want to go and most those guys and their wives didn't want them to go either I’m sure. But the one group that he and his fellow comrades after Dachau did despise were people in the SS. And I remember him telling me and I don't know if it's in his letters, but he, but he did tell me one time that after Dachau, whenever they caught someone, one of the people that was in the SS, they shot him on site. They just couldn't they thought what they had done was so horrible that they just had absolutely complete intolerance for them, as, as human beings. But all others, they had no, no animosity to, to the best of my ability to tell.

But I, I digressed a little bit off my original track. I wanted to share something about Sue’s dad because of all he went through in the Pacific fighting the Japanese. Ethan, I don't know if you know this, but our two children are both adopted from Asia. They're now adults. Our son is in Omaha, and he's autistic, but he's living independently with some help from us and a very loyal employee at Walmart which has been really good to him. And our daughter is, got her master’s in Public Administration and is married and lives in Lincoln. But Sue and I were worried when we decided to adopt our kids from South Korea that her father would have a problem with that because of all of his war experiences. And he absolutely loved our kids. There was no problem at all, so I was touched by that. Anyway, so, he was a neat guy. Like my wife said this morning, she said, you shouldn't worry about this interview Tom, your dad was a neat guy.

Your father had a way like of recognizing people’s like humanity, even though he understood that like okay, these are my enemies at the same time like it never, like he never described these people as necessarily like sub-human. He never, you know elude, he never like, he never like glorified violence against them. Like he didn't, he didn't revel in you know the violence of the war. He, he deplored it, you know, entirely. And I think you know, that speaks to the fact that he was a medic. You know, he in a lot of ways, he probably saw some of the worst parts of the war, you know taking care of people. And in fact, a letter I was just reading this morning just kind of to recap, Clarence was talking about how at a certain point, you know later in the war, a lot of times the casualties wouldn't be American soldiers. They would be Nazis. They would be German soldiers you know, and how the majority of the soldiers he was taking care of most of the time were you know enemies, and how they still helped them you know like if they were injured and especially like if it was a Nazi family. They would, they would help these kids. Like you know mothers of officers would bring their kids in when they got sick, and they would take care of these kids. And he remarked something like, I hope that they treat you know our POWs as well as we treat theirs. You know, like he, he certainly...I mean your father was like an incredible man.

What, what are those moments that still stick out to you like primarily when you think of your father?

Well, he was, he was a super neat guy. I, you know, I jotted down just some descriptors of him, and you know, I thought he, he was a man that displayed dignity. He had self-discipline. He was very hard-working. I mean you know, small business is not easy, and he worked six days a week, and the seventh day of week he didn't rest. At least until I got old enough, he mowed the lawn and did stuff around the house and so on. I think that's the way people were back then, maybe more than they are now, but, and he didn't begrudge that. I think he was proud of his accomplishment as a person to build a small business and, and he had, he had, I used to have lunch with him and some of the people he hung out with when I was working there. And we go over to Gold's and have lunch with people, like one guy who was a Justice on the Supreme Court. And one of the other guys that showed up was General Henninger who ran the National Guard for the state. And so, I don't know how he met all those people, but he was involved in the Masons and some other civic organizations, and he seemed to be, seemed to know people and be pretty well known around the city. They had, they were involved in something called the Cosmopolitan Club, where they had they played bridge every Friday night. They'd come over to our house and play bridge.

I know that very well — your father mentions it a lot in the letters.

They loved bridge. One thing that is fairly common from what little I know, from the people that I know that were in World War II, it's probably true. And actually from guys I know that were practically in any war, including some good friends of ours like somebody that was in Vietnam, is that they don't talk about it when they get home. I mean my father aside from his Holocaust experiences which he never really described in detail, but he would I mean, he was, certainly talked about that it happened. He didn't elaborate on the particulars. And we did, by the way, when we went to Europe, we did of course visit Dachau. And that was, that would have been really neat to have recorded because we walked around, and he was describing where he took his pictures. Now Beth has, have you been to Dachau, Beth?

Okay well it's, you know it, it's sanitized now. It's, I don't know if it's good or bad, but the buildings are all painted white, and you know it sort of looks like a school playground. There's a very elaborate museum of artifacts and documents, and in fact there's a book that was, that is published in English that we have copies of from Dachau. But he was able to describe where the railroad cars were and where he took his pictures and other things. Although the truth is now that you know it's probably I don't know how he could have remembered it because I, I think the, the whole site has been so, I don't know changed let's say. And as I said sanitized. I think that's probably right. I don't think it has the, you wouldn't, how do you say this? How do you make it, how do you make it be appropriate and carry the horror that it was? You can't really do that publicly. So, I get that part, but I think it would have been interesting for especially in this context to have had a record of him describing where those things happened in within the, within the area of Dachau itself. Now I’m sure that probably they have that information somewhere from other observers, but it would, it would have been pretty, pretty cool.

I am curious to know like when, when you went on this trip back to Europe, and particularly when you were back at Dachau, was that an emotional experience like for your father?

Yeah, I think, I think it was. You know it wasn't, he wasn't, he was a probably a typical man of his era, which is that emotions are real, you don't wear those on your sleeve, but he was clearly touched by it. And I mean, how could you not be? You know and I, I mean, I was as well, but you know, but having, but going back and being actually on the spot where you actually were there before when it was actually happening had to be very emotional. I mean I get emotional when I go in the neighborhood I grew up in in Lincoln. So I mean imagine what this must have been like for him. And, but you know we had, we have mostly, we had good times. We had some good memories. And you know I think it was in some ways bittersweet for him, but it was, but he treasured the fact that we did it. And it was, it was interesting because I know my wife, my wife, my wife had been to Europe one summer. She spent the whole summer there with a girlfriend of hers. And then so we're going back, and it's kind of like well, do we really want to do this with your parents? And you know and, and we did. It turned out to be just a great time. We just had, we had a wonderful time. They were great people to hang out with anyway, but you know we're...obviously, there was an age difference. Do we want to, do we want to do this? But it was, it was enlightening and a lot of fun. And I have to say, it was, it was just a great trip, really was.

Was that the first time that he had had the chance to go back to Europe. He mentions so many times in his letters how badly he wants to take your mother to Europe with him some day. It's like he wanted that so badly for them. I was curious, did they end up ever going on their own?

No, that was it for us. They went with us that one time. And you know, we obviously at some places, we would do, we would kind of split up, my wife and I like to go hiking in the mountains. So, when we stayed in the Alps one time, Sue and I went up and went hiking and my folks did other stuff. Mostly we did everything together, but that was it. You know that was their trip. They did a lot of traveling around the United States with a group called Talk Tours after we were, you know my wife and I had moved to Omaha, and we kind of were living more of our separate lives then. But I don't recall that they ever went back to Europe, but maybe I’ll find a photo album and find that I’m wrong. He liked to take pictures, as you know.

I think we could probably move on to the next one. You've already talked a little bit about like what your dad did after the war. I didn't know that he went and started a business afterwards. A lot of my, you know, knowledge of your father, you know, kind of ends after that last letter that he sends to your mother. So, I’m really, it's really cool to hear that he became an entrepreneur and came back and was a, you know, an active member of his community. So initially this, this question was, how did your father spend the rest of his life after the war? But I think the more important part of this question is like, what was your father's life mission, you know?

I think you know basically he wanted to be a good man in the oldest sense of the term. I don't know if that means to you what it does to someone of my vintage, but you know when I say that, I think about a closing line in the Band of Brothers or actually Saving Private Ryan, that's what I’m thinking of. That's when I say a good man. That's, if you've seen that movie at the end, that's what I think his life mission was. It's more just than being a neat guy. And he, and he was. So, I think a big part of that, was what you're doing was, was educating about this life experience, was really important to him. And he, he spent a significant amount of effort, and he was always willing to go do that. I had another thought, but it left me briefly. Maybe I’ll come back, but I think that's what his life mission was.

He, his, his father left their family early in his life. I don't know how old he was, but when he was growing up in Crescent, his dad went out and married somebody in I believe in Idaho. And I haven't really, he also had a brother that he did not keep in touch with. And I, and I don't know why, there was something going on there that I don't know anything about, but I know that his dad remarried out west and someone that is in the Mormon faith because they've contacted me from time to time. I need to kind of follow up with them and find out about what happened out that way but, but maybe that...you know, it's interesting because often, often men that are, that come from homes where their father is, has deserted the family are less loyal, but that was definitely not, that's, he broke the cycle let's say. And it does tend to be a cycle if you, if you, if you follow sociology at all, but, but he didn't do that. And so, I think he clearly, clearly loved my mom and wanted to be, wanted to be a neat husband and dad and be successful in his life, and he was.

You're, you're completely right. You're, at least from the, from the letters, I can tell that you know your father really, really, really loved your mother. I mean he was, he wrote every day you know. It wasn't just like he wrote a small thing. He wrote four, five pages a day you know. I feel like in a lot of ways your father's motivation to get back home and to finish the war was your mother you know. Like it, it seems that, that was his preoccupation all the time, and I mean it's completely understandable too. It's, it really was beautiful. There, there are some moments—and I hope you get to read them soon—there are some moments that are really, really touching, particularly when he's talking about your mother and just how much he loved her. I see a lot of reflections in like how like I have felt in my own relationships in my own life, and you know like the way that he talks about your mother like he just, he adored her. And you know, you know this was 80 years ago, these letters or whatever. But in a lot of ways, it, it reads like you know a modern love story, you know like it's not so different. It really wasn't and it truly was, it's, it's an amazing, it's an amazing thing to go through all the letters. And that's, I mean like truly, like to say your dad loved your mother is really an understatement, and like to say that he was loyal like that, that, that completely is consistent with what, with what I have read for sure.

Yeah, well, it's you know, and I don't know, yeah. And I, I, well one, two unrelated comments. One is when he went to the war, if you calculate his age, he was an older soldier. So, you know he went with a lot of maturity that you wouldn't have found in some much younger soldier, and probably which was in part an influencer in his electing to take a camera with him. Although I, actually if there's one question about all that, I’d love to ask him, it's like why in the world did you do that? I mean who does that kind of thing? Right, but he was an older soldier. I think that's, that's in there. And I think he's...

As soon as I really started getting invested in all of it, I was amazed by the impact, and it was interesting because there were times where I’d be transcribing a letter, and it would parallel something that was going on in my own life you know.

That's cool.

It’s, it was really incredible just because I mean a lot of ways, in a lot of ways that, the letters he's sending to your mother are very personal you know. And that's, that's why I hope you get to get to read them because they are just so you know they're so candid, so personal. There were, there were just so many times when you know I could totally understand where he was coming from, and I felt like he you know understood me in a way too. And I, what even, what was so evident to me you know particularly as we're like kind of closing up with this collection is just how like I always viewed history so abstractly, and the people of the past as like, you know, you know almost superficially. But like these, these people, the past, your father, you know, all the Holocaust survivors we’re talking about, they were real people with relationships and families and trials, and you know they had their own problems and their own moments of you know happiness and sadness. And truly, I feel like this whole project has just been a like, almost like a study of humanity in a lot of ways. And that's what's so beautiful about this entire thing. So, no, I did not anticipate having you know just such a, a philosophical awakening because of this project, but indeed, it has happened. And you know, I’m all more grateful for it.

Tom, do you remember your dad going into schools? Like what kinds of classes invited him? What prompted them to invite him? And, and what he would say after he visited schools?

You know he didn't talk about that much. I, my very hazy, vague, low confidence remembrance was intended to be high schools. And I think, I don't know that there was any institutional organizational background that got him. I think it was maybe word of mouth more than anything else. I think teachers, I remember once I think he said a teacher would ask him to come somehow. And I, you know, I don't know. I don't know how that happened. He was also very active in veterans’ organizations, Legion Club—we used to eat there regularly. He was, there's a group called The Forty and Eight, that is sort of a special military group he was in. I don't know what they do. I, you know, I, by the way, I did find some more of his military artifacts, more of a, issues of parts of uniforms and things like that that you may be interested in. But I don't, I don't exactly know how, how they managed to contact him. Maybe I’ll find something that will explain that. I think sadly most of the people that they were good friends with are no longer living of course. I don't know who I could ask.

I think the Band of Brothers is the best movie we've ever made personally. I think it's better than Saving Private Ryan. It's not, because they interviewed the guys that were there, which is part of it, and it's extremely well done. And I think that liberation scene is, I don't know how they filmed it. It's incredibly, scarily realistic. I just, I just don't even know, you know, where they got those guys and how they pulled it together like that. It's just, it is, it's an amazing movie. I could digress into the scene, one of the scenes I like, but it's irrelevant so I won’t talk...

We can, we can talk about it when we go to lunch. How about that? Alright, so I think next question, I think we also talked about this a little bit, but the next question on my list was about how the war affected your father?

I would, I’m, I’m totally conjecturing. I mean 100% conjecturing because I didn't know him of course, but I would say probably both. I think in many ways, he was probably, considered every day a blessing that he made it back alive, and that he wanted to bring out the best in people and his family, me, his friends. But I’m sure there was in some ways that I don't understand, you know, I’ll use it probably naive term, loss of innocence of what people can do to people. I would imagine going to war is a real reality check and something that I wouldn't, wouldn't wish that kind of reality check on anyone. But we live, in the United States, we live in Disneyland... I think he came back really understanding how valuable life is and appreciating his country, which he was deeply proud of his country, very patriotic about the United States and that it was by far the best country in the world, which I still believe by the way. So, I think that it probably affected him that way, but you know, I don't know that I could elaborate in any more detail as, as I say, that's totally a guess, so.

No, I think, I think that's an incredible answer. And I mean, I think that's reflective, that's reflected in the letters.

I think too when he came back as a veteran, veterans were honored then, unlike after Vietnam. They came back literally as heroes, and you know, and it was, you know, you can look at the old world, the, all the movies that come out after World War II that celebrate the success in the War. I mean, look at White Christmas, you know, you could name a bunch of them, that kind of hearken back to those days. It was a, it was a time where you were, where that service was valued unlike back when I was in college in, Vietnam was such a mess. So, a lot went into it. I think, I think coming back to my mom was a real stabilizing factor to him. She was, and we're not talking about my mom, but we should because she was a neat lady. I mean she never went to high school either, but was a very successful, honestly, businesswoman. She didn't have her own business, but she was, as I recall, secretary for a bank president in Council Bluffs. And you're lucky you're not reading her letters because they're all in shorthand. You know what shorthand is?

Yeah, I know what shorthand is.

Well, she did all, she, all of her stuff at home, grocery lists and everything, were utterly illegible because they were all at shorthand because that was the way she took dictation. And what I remember was back in this, when would this have been? In the 20s or 30s, one of the things that she did was go into the bank president's office one day and complain that she wasn't making as much as men. I love it. So, there was, there were two strong people in my family, not just one.

Well, that's, that's pretty nice to hear. I’ve read a couple of your mother's letters. We have a few of those in the collection, I believe. So, I’ve read a little bit about...I, so, I, I know your mother a little bit. I know, obviously, your mother through what your father says about her, but it's interesting, it's interesting to hear you say that she went in and demanded equal pay. I think that's reflective of a lot. So, we can, we can move on if we want. I think we talked a little about this before, but I don't, I think it'd be nice to go over it again. I was wondering if your father stayed in contact with any of his other fellow soldiers or just his friends that he made along, you know, along the way of the war? I’m just really curious to know if, you know, all these people that I have heard so much about and were obviously part of a very important part of his life, whether or not he stayed in contact with those, with those guys.

That, that's a terrific question, and I, and I really have a complete, almost a complete vacancy there. I don't remember the, any objective evidence one way or the other. I don't remember phone calls. I don't remember that they made special trips to get together. I don't remember any of them visiting our home. So, and of course, back in that day you, you couldn't do a Zoom call, you know. Basically, it was a long-distance call, or you would write a letter, and so he might have kept in contact. I’m guessing in some of his veterans’ organizations locally that there were friends there, and I know he made friends there. One, one couple in particular, they did a lot of traveling with, and I think that's where they met. But I’m, I’m not a, I just don't know. I don't really have any idea. He didn't...if so, it was not like a real big deal for him, but, but you have to also remember what I told you about his working life, which was pretty arduous. I mean he, he ran a store, right. It was, it was our livelihood. And so, I mean he was, that's where he put in a lot of his time, you know. Like with that, we opened I think, we opened every day, I’m trying to remember, I think it was 8:30, 8 or 8:30, and closed at 5 or 5:30. And, and then and in the old days in Lincoln, before all, all the shopping centers came in, when downtown Lincoln actually was cool—I don't mean to deride downtown Lincoln now, but it's a shadow of its former self. That's where everything happened. That's where the shopping was. Every Christmas, all the lights were on, and everybody went downtown. And Thursday nights were the evening that all the stores were open, and so he would, so Hank’s Auto was always open every Thursday night. And I can't remember until when, maybe eight or something like that, I can't recall, but Thursday nights were the big nights in downtown Lincoln where everybody stayed open. And then on Sunday, everything was closed. So, all that changed when Gateway came, and then that was, I remember, that was a big challenge for my dad worrying about what that was going to do. And then things started to loosen up after that, and then everybody was open all the time, which was hard for him because he just had a few employees. So, anyway I digress but. So anyway, so I don't actually recall or know what he did with the guys in his album. And I guess possibly if were I to look at some of the names, I might recognize a name or two. I’ve not meticulously done that.

What are the names of the couple who you mentioned that they traveled with?

Ooh I’m not remembering it. I think I can find it, but they're no longer living. But he was, but I, but I do know that, that they were, they were very close friends, and very helpful when my mom and dad...they were, as I think, maybe a little younger, they were very helpful to me personally when we became struggling with illness in the older age ages so.

I was, I was curious whether or not your father, was he ever part of like the American Legion? Did he ever?

Oh yeah, he did all that stuff.

How much did your father talk about the war? And you mentioned that he doesn't, he didn't mention a whole lot. But I guess more specifically, like how much did he mention like Dachau? You know, like obviously that was probably the, you know, the worst thing he saw during the war, was the liberation of Dachau. I was curious if that was a conversation that he, you know, was that not something that he immediately revealed to you? Was that something that he eventually sat you down and talked about? Like how was, how was that approached? And yeah.

No, no, he no, there was, it was, there was not...It was not like that there was an intentional conversation where we sat down and said, let's talk about Dachau. That did not happen. I mean I was aware of it. I grew, you know, the materials that you all have were things that I looked at a lot when I was growing up. So, you know, there's the Rainbow Division book has pictures of it. I knew, and I looked through his album, and I knew, and I looked through the other artifacts that I had because I grew up with those, which as I know I’ve, maybe I’ve told Beth, I don't know, but, but because I grew up with this and knew so much about it, honestly, I, people have asked me: So, have you been to the Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C.? And my answer is, no and I’m not going to. I, you know, I just you know, I grew up with it. It's horrible. Maybe there would be something there that would, that I would find that would change my view in some fashion, but I just, you know, I just can't. I don't think I can deal with it, and so, I, you know, I’m not, you know, I’ve never gone to that, but I think it's, I think, I know people that have found it extremely informative and challenging and what would be the term? Inspirational would be a term and depressing all together, but because I grew up with it, then you know, my knowledge of it is visual and from reading, but the only thing I, that I remember for sure that he talked about was what I mentioned is, that after they liberated Dachau, if they ever, if he or his comrades ever came across someone that was with the SS, the SS, they would shoot them because of what they did. They just considered it to be so horrible and so completely inhumane that that they just had complete and total hatred for that particular group. But all the, but he never, they didn't feel that way about the common German soldier or the common people or anything like that. But they just felt that somebody that could orchestrate that sort of inhumane atrocity was not worthy to live. And, and I, and I, I remember him saying that. And I mean I doubt, he was a medic so he couldn't carry a gun. Actually one artifact I have from his that is kind of interesting is a knife about this long. They were allowed to carry a knife for self protection, and so he had, had a basically had a Bowie knife for them through the war, which actually I still have, but which he never had to use. But, but they had no regard for, for those guys, and you know, that's the one comment that for some reason stuck. There might have been others that I don't remember, but he didn't spend a lot of time talking about it. So, I kind of learned about it from the other things that I grew up around.

Certainly your, the photos your father took were, certainly had an effect on me. And I think that's all the more reason that we, we do need to meet because I mean, I feel like in some ways, your father, you know, has had such a powerful effect on, on just myself. And now, he's going to have such a powerful effect on, you know, any college student who goes through and looks at these resources. And frankly, another thing I think needs to get mentioned too is that like, it's not like in a few years, like if they stop you know, for some reason, the classes at Wesleyan stop using your father's stuff, that means that that that stuff won't ever be used. Like history, I mean in a hundred years, you know, they're going to be historians looking back. We're still studying the Holocaust, two, three hundred...I mean history goes on, you know. And so, the stuff we're doing right now is, I mean this stuff could be beneficial to people in 50 or 100 years. And that's what I’m hoping it is. And I mean we're, we're kind of at the point where we're almost, you know, a lot of the, the survivors and a lot of the, the veterans of World War II are passing away now. So, like, this, this is like that time when we need to be doing this the most, I think. And it's, I think, it's really, really powerful stuff. It's had quite the effect on my life.

Well, that's wonderful. It’s personal.

Yeah, and this actually kind of goes into my next question as well, which I was going to ask, like so obviously your father has had an effect, you know, on my life already—I was wondering what kind of effect he had, you know, his life had on yours and the influence he had in your life? And you know, I think I even asked like, was he, was he your role model? You know, like who, who was your father to you and the, the effect he had on your life?

Yeah. No, he no...in a word, yes. He was, yeah, clearly, I think my role model. And I, I think for people that grew up in a, particularly boys that grew up in a good home with a good father, that that's probably almost certainly correct. Perhaps you can elaborate on that as well, but I think, I think that is, that could segue into a lot of discussion about what the issues are with the family today, which are very significant, but I, I guess two things that that come to mind, not totally about him, but about our family, I think when I was growing up, one thing that both was true for both me and my wife is that we consider our homes to be totally and completely safe, where we were totally and completely loved whatever the age, whatever happened, that, that we had a safe, that was the ultimate safe space for us. And I think that, that, that certainly comes out of that kind of presence. And the other thing is, I really, I made a note that I’m, I’m unaware that either my father or my mother ever lied to me or anyone else. It's not to say people don't say, yeah well, I like your shirt when they don't, but you get the point. You know, some substantive sort of inappropriate distortion of the truth to my knowledge, I never saw that in either my parents to each other, to me or to other people that they worked with. And so, I think those were important ethical and family principles that I learned. But yeah, I know he was, he was clearly my role model. I actually never rebelled against my parents. I thought, actually for some strange reason, when my friends didn't like their parents, I always thought mine were pretty smart. Why is that? I don't know maybe, it's me. But I love my parents deeply, still do. And so, yeah, he was my role model.

What do you think in the end, like your father's legacy is? Like what do you, what do you, what are you hoping that people take away from your father's story?

Well, I think in a personal note, I’m hearkened back to which, which occurred to me spontaneously in this discussion, is if you think about the end of the movie, Saving Private Ryan, that he was a good man and that he lived a good life. I think that's personally what he wanted. I think that that this particular legacy is educating on this topic would definitely be, those are probably the two things. And I think, I think that the two aspects of this particular event that, that I jotted some notes on that I think he would like people to know is that quotation, this thing, close quotation, actually happened. It really did happen. And secondly, the humankind bears within it the capacity to do this thing again anywhere, and that it didn't just happen and go away. And Ethan, as you said, it's happening now. And we grew up on, well Beth, you lived next to the Casargen’s on 99th avenue. I don't know how much you had a chance to talk with them, but the elder lady grandma, she was still there when you were there, and I think she was. She grew up and survived the Armenian Holocaust, if that's the right term, the Armenian genocide, which the United States just acknowledged a few months ago, which caused Erdogan and the Turkish government's heads to implode. But that really actually happened, and they survived that. And she lived her whole life in wars. They survived that, then somewhere in there was World War I, World War II, and she that, that was an interesting lady. Beth, I hope you had a chance to talk to Mrs. Casargen1 because she actually had bullets go through her hair from time to time. But that was, I think that's, that this would clearly be, were he to know this, would be probably his proudest achievement is being sure that this story is told. And he would be immensely honored that you all are doing this. It's clearly gone well beyond anything that I thought would ever come of it. And so, for him, I’m very grateful that you guys do this and for people that can read it and learn and be aware and be alert and realize that it isn't necessarily just a one-off, you know. I mean, it can go from not all that bad to this in just a few years. History, I think one of the things I’ve learned Ethan, is that history is not a linear event, you know, Lenin taking over Russia or anything. I mean in our country right now, we're at a watershed and whatever your political views are, it's pretty clear that the history of our country may be radically changed in a matter of months. And I guess, you know one thing I, if I were Beth, I’d wonder about is how long it's going to be politically acceptable to even talk about the Holocaust. That could change too. So, anyway, that's...I digress, but that's what I think he would want people to know is that they would realize that it was real. It actually happened and to be aware that aside from active vigilance, that this can happen again.