Kitty Williams Survivor Testimony (Part I)

Once we get started you're going to see, you're going to forget about Mike, and you're going to forget about the camera, and it'll just be two friends sitting and talking.

Just ignore me like my wife does.

Yeah. [Laughter]

You know, they always talk about these TV shows where people sit and talk, and they get along, and then they go on the camera, and then the person.

I'm gonna try and put my glasses on. What is it on already?

No.

June 19th, 1996, interview with survivor Katherine Williams Ehrenfeld. My name is Ben Nachman, N-A-C-H-M-A-N, interview being conducted in Council Bluffs, Iowa, United States of America, in English. Can you give me your name, please?

I'm Katherine Williams, but everyone calls me Kitty.

And what was your maiden name?

My maiden name was, my last name was Ehrenfeld. Would you like me to spell it?

Yes, would you please?

E-H-R-E-N-F-E-L-D.

And when were you born?

And I was born in 1924, September 3rd of 1924.

How old are you today?

And I'm 71.

Where were you born?

I was born in Hungary, in a little town named Sarand, which I must spell for you, um S-A-R-A-N-D. It was in the eastern section of Hungary, a town of about 2,000 people, population, it was about 2,000.

Were there many Jewish people living in the town?

Actually, there were none. We were the only family, one other family, lived out on the outskirts, you might say the suburbs, of, or out in the country. Another family who, the man was Jewish, and he married a Christian woman, who converted to Judaism, and they kept kosher, and was, you know, very active in whatever Jewish life there was. And she certainly considered herself Jewish. They had two children. That was the extent of, of the Jewish population around.

How many were in your family, sisters and brothers?

I had, all together there were seven of us. There were four girls and three boys. And I was the youngest one.

What kind of work did your father do?

Well, my father had, he wore, you might say, many hats. We had a general store, we had a bar, but we also had land. He rented some land, we owned some land, and we had grapes, grape vineyards. He was also, sort of, acted as, uh um advisor to people in town, and he was, if anybody needed to have an official document, he was he was always ready to do it or to to help people out, and he they came to him like for all sorts of advice. He was, he only had a fourth grade education, but he was very intelligent, and he had the most beautiful handwriting. And somehow, everyone in town seeked his advice on different matters, and he was well-respected. He was like like an uncle to the younger people, a father figure, but he was just well-loved. I just can't describe it to you how well thought he was of, and how even when the when the Jewish law started to come in existence, people would say, but Uncle Ehrenfeld, this this can't apply to you. You're different, and you served in World War I, and he was wounded, and served like five years, even. And um, and it seemed like nobody thought that it should apply to us, that we were, we were exception.

Did your mother work with your father and his business?

Well, I don't remember my mother too well because I was seven years old when my mother died. She died of typhus, and actually, she, I also lost a little sister at the same time. The whole family contact contact contacted. You have to help me out sometimes. The disease, they went to a wedding, and evidently, they had some, they got some kind of food poisoning, but they all became very, very sick, and with typhus, and of course, with no you know decent medication available at the time, we lost my mother, and we lost my little sister. And and fortunate-, the only reason that I didn't get the disease is because I was not at the wedding. I spent the summer with an Aunt and Uncle in in another town. So I don't recall a whole lot about my mother, except that she probably wouldn't have had much time to be helping my my father to make a living because she had so many children, and she was pretty busy raising children. I would imagine, that's what I would imagine happened.

Who helped out in the home after your mother's death?

Well, it started with the oldest girl, and as they left left the home, they either got married or went away to a larger town to to get some sort of an education because the the handwriting was on the wall to begin with that we, even women, needed to to work. And there was no opportunity, really, in the little town I lived in to make a living. So little by little, all my siblings left. And when I was 14, I was left with my alone with my dad. And we did have a housekeeper, but I had to plan the meals, and I was sorta in charge. And also in the store I, not so much in charge, but but I helped my father run it. And and I did a lot of the buying, went to Budapest, for instance, that was just the capital of Hungary, and um, and um did the purchasing for the store. I kept pretty busy, and especially after after high school. And of course, I wanted to go on to college, but at that time, the Jewish laws were already in existence. In fact, they started in probably in '38, '39. And we all felt the effect of it. And of course, one of the laws was that only, because we were 6% of the pop- the Jewish were at 6% of the population, that only 6% of could attend, like colleges or any higher education. They were only, they had a quota system. And so my father said that we had to save those spaces for the boys, because it was more naturally, at that time, it was more desirable for a man to get education than for a woman. So I stayed home with my dad until I was taken to Auschwitz.

Did you grow up in a religious home?

Well, we did have kosher kitchen, you might say. I was always somewhat, I'd be honest with you, always a little bit rebellious. And while I had, in my childhood, I had periods where I was wanted to be very religious. I think I was influenced by people I came in contact with. And I think I think toward the end, I was I started questioning of why all the things that were happening to Jews, all the hatred that was expressed toward us. And actually, all my life, I was different than anyone in town. And I was questioning where, it's a religion you shouldn't question, you just should accept it on blind faith, and I couldn't do it. But my dad loved me just the same. We didn't always agree on religion. He would get up four o'clock in the morning and would pray probably two hours or three hours. And he would never never miss it. There was a synagogue about three miles from us. There was also a little town, but had a lot larger Jewish population. And we used to go, he would go every Saturday. I would usually meet him on the way home, walk to that town, it was about three, I believe I said three, about three miles from us. And we would walk home holding hands. And it was the most beautiful memories of my life, just talking with him. And that's how we would spend the holidays usually. Either I would walk with him all the way and waited for him, play with some of the Jewish children there, and then walk home with him. And that was the highlight of my of my existence. I love my dad so much.

Do you remember the name of that town where the synagogue was located?

Yes, it's called Hajdúbagos. And it's uh, I will have to spell it for anybody who's you know interested. It's H-A-J-D-U-B-A-D-O-S.

And it was a larger town than the town you lived in?

It must have been somewhat larger. My recollection is not all that good. And I hate to say that when I was- I did visit Hungary twice since the Holocaust, I did not go back to this town. And I still intend to go back because I would like to see just the memories it holds for me. And to my knowledge, no one came back from that town. No one lived through.

Did your family have roots that were in Hungary for many years?

It must have been. I couldn't tell you, but just how many generation it would go back. But I had, first of all, maybe in this country, too, nobody lived to be ripe old age like we're doing now. So like I didn't know my grandparents. The only grandparent that I knew of, or I knew was my mother's father, I think he lived to be like about 80. But other from that, it just that was, that I learned that some of them were rabbis. Most of them, I think farmers, which my father was also, and as a young man, he worked as a hired man raising potatoes, or even he was a very hard worker. But he had a really vast knowledge of farming and he was sort of way ahead of his time, that if a piece of land that was worthless, they would give it to him to build it, or rent it to him to build it up, because in a few years, it would be a really good piece of land. So he seemed, I feel that in everything, he was way ahead of his time.

Did you ever meet this grandfather?

No, not that I know of.

Where did he live?

He lived also on a farm in another county, and because my mother died, and so you know the relationship didn't really exist more or less. My grandfather remarried and had another family, several other children, so I don't recall meeting him. I probably did when I was real young.

Did you have any other extended family living in Hungary?

Yes, on my father's side, well, both on my father's side and my mother's side. They had several siblings, and um, so the, so the so my first cousins were actually always my best friends as well. We were very close, and it was seldom that we didn't have someone at our house visiting, spending just weeks, or we had someone who actually went to school from our house because we lived about 13 miles from a larger town called Debrecen, D-E-B-R-E-C-E-N, and that was several hundred thousand population, and open for you know a lot of opportunities, so I had cousins who actually stayed at our house. It was always sort of full house, and my father was very generous to everyone. There was never a beggar that was sent away, empty-handed, and we were always feeding people who came by, and it was always sort of open house system.

Did you ever get an opportunity to visit any of the relatives in other cities?

Yes, see, we really didn't have a so-called social life that would be here because we were not really accepted by townspeople, although I had girlfriends I went to school with, but there was very limited because we were still the dirty Jew, although I will say that there were some nice people in my hometown, and I found that even when the chips were really down after the Germans came, that I shouldn't make a blank statement that they were all bad, but [sigh], but [sigh] the Hungarians are notorious Jew haters, and like in every country, I think, the less educated, the most likely to be, and we were blamed for every ailment the country had, and always the scapegoats, so by the time, and maybe I'm jumping way ahead of time, but it seemed to me like that by the time the Germans came, we were almost, and they took us, we were almost relieved because our lives were no longer safe, and that was mostly caused by the young Hungarians, the punks, who really helped the Germans to achieve their, what they wanted to accomplish, but the Hungarians, I would say they were more open about uh about the the prosecution of the Jews, where, or maybe they were used by the Germans to do their dirty jobs, that we almost felt like like, like a relief when we were taken. I had, for instance, one, and again, I don't know if I'm saying this all in the right order, if I don't want to be jumping, but for instance, after, I don't know, you know, I guess what the state expects me to say, but I think I just want to put, make you make people understand the frame of mind that we were in, that all the years of of prosecution, that and yet the love of the country, which is, you know, amazing to me now, how Hungarians we were, and how we felt that if we obeyed the laws, right or wrong, we didn't question it, but as long as we obeyed it, we we would be rewarded for it.

So I will cite you a couple of examples that even though, that I think my father was the wisest man that I ever knew, that he was also, he also had this theory that, for instance, I remember when I was in the ghetto, I was 19 years old, and we were, this friend of mine from the same town, the girl that I mentioned, or the people I mentioned before, their daughter, and I were the same age, and we were picked to go and go out in the ghetto that was, that the people were already taken from, and go to the houses, and get fetch the food that they left. And that's when, you know, we walked in, and we realized that these people had left and they had no warnings as to when they're going to be transported from there, taken from the ghetto. They already left their home, they were already concentrated in a small section of this town, and and it looked, you know, like shoes on the floor, or children's clothing scattered all over. It looked that like they were awakened in the middle of the night, and taken from their homes. And I remember hearing noises up in the ceiling, and we were German police, I mean, Hungarian police escorted us, and we did the cleaning, and gathered the food to take it back to our ghetto, which was just a small place, like an old factory was or barn was converted into a, you know, makeshift ghetto. And I remember saying to this police, I hear noises, which, I mean, with my present mind, I would have denied it, even if he said that he heard noises, you know. And and so he investigated, and he brought down two young men, who were young Jewish boys, who I'm sure, you know, they they try were escap- try to escape to Israel, is what I imagined that they were trying to do, because that was about the only thing, you know, could have saved your life. But, you know, I was so naive that that I thought, here they are, they're not obeying the law like we do, if they tell us, you know, you pack your things, you can take 20 kilos with you, and you will be taken somewhere we followed, absolutely blindly. And I often think of that, because I feel guilty, that I, who knows, maybe those kids would have lived, and I hope that they lived in spite of my action. But I went back to the ghetto, and and everyone, I told my father and he, and told the other people, they all thought I was a hero, because this is our problem, that's why things happen to us, because because of people who don't obey the law. Now, this just sort of blows my mind, that what how we were, and how naive we were. But this is how it was, and I can't take it back, you know. I dwell on it sometimes.

When the war broke out in Europe, were you pretty well informed of what was going on, the Nazi invasion of Poland and so on?

Yes, we were, and we had a lot of people, for instance, stopped at our house, who were escaping from, mostly from Poland, and and a were trying to make it south to the sea, you know, to to eventually find a way to Israel. And while my father always helped them, he always gave me the impression that, well, that can't happen to Hungarian Jews. First of all, we were very assimilated. Close to, like the Germans were. And, for instance, I never learned to speak Yiddish, because by the time, you know, I came along, it was, the thing was, to be a Hungarian foremost. That was that was our country.

When things started to change, what change, what notices did you have of change taking place?

Well, first, it affected you, I suppose you would say financially, if you run a business. There were all these quotas. And first, they took away your right to, for instance, in our case, to sell tobacco, to sell liquor. And at first, because my father was, well, I don't know how many medals he had of bravery and so forth, that he, at first he was, we were obviously an exception. It didn't apply to us. But toward the end, there was no excuse for anyone. If you just had a [renter?], you could just trace that you had, like, out of eight grandparents, if you had one grandparent who was who was Jewish, you were considered Jewish. And for some reason, they they could detect, or, you know, it was a fantastic network that they had to have, that, for instance, we had a doctor in our town who was Catholic, and so was his wife, and they were very much in the middle of the social life of the town. He was the only doctor. He died before all this happened, but his widow was always entertaining, the elite, and nobody, I never dreamt that there was any anything connected to being Jewish.

And it turned out that she was, or I think they were both Jewish and converted, like, back in the 1800s. I mean, they were old people, or she was an older lady. Eventually, she wound up in our house because they made our house a ghetto. And so, it consisted of my father and I, the couple that I mentioned before, and their daughter that, they lived in the outskirts, and this lady who came with her fur coats and jewelry and constantly kept crying that I am not Jewish. I believe in Jesus, and I'm Catholic, but it didn't matter. I have heard that people crying when we were taken to the baths in Auschwitz saying, but I'm not Jewish, but it didn't matter.