Kitty Williams Shoah Foundation Testimony

Once we get started you're going to see, you're going to forget about Mike, and you're going to forget about the camera, and it'll just be two friends sitting and talking.

Just ignore me like my wife does.

Yeah. [Laughter]

You know, they always talk about these TV shows where people sit and talk, and they get along, and then they go on the camera, and then the person.

I'm gonna try and put my glasses on. What is it on already?

No.

June 19th, 1996, interview with survivor Katherine Williams Ehrenfeld. My name is Ben Nachman, N-A-C-H-M-A-N, interview being conducted in Council Bluffs, Iowa, United States of America, in English. Can you give me your name, please?

I'm Katherine Williams, but everyone calls me Kitty.

And what was your maiden name?

My maiden name was, my last name was Ehrenfeld. Would you like me to spell it?

Yes, would you please?

E-H-R-E-N-F-E-L-D.

And when were you born?

And I was born in 1924, September 3rd of 1924.

How old are you today?

And I'm 71.

Where were you born?

I was born in Hungary, in a little town named Sarand, which I must spell for you, um S-A-R-A-N-D. It was in the eastern section of Hungary, a town of about 2,000 people, population, it was about 2,000.

Were there many Jewish people living in the town?

Actually, there were none. We were the only family, one other family, lived out on the outskirts, you might say the suburbs, of, or out in the country. Another family who, the man was Jewish, and he married a Christian woman, who converted to Judaism, and they kept kosher, and was, you know, very active in whatever Jewish life there was. And she certainly considered herself Jewish. They had two children. That was the extent of, of the Jewish population around.

How many were in your family, sisters and brothers?

I had, all together there were seven of us. There were four girls and three boys. And I was the youngest one.

What kind of work did your father do?

Well, my father had, he wore, you might say, many hats. We had a general store, we had a bar, but we also had land. He rented some land, we owned some land, and we had grapes, grape vineyards. He was also, sort of, acted as, uh um advisor to people in town, and he was, if anybody needed to have an official document, he was he was always ready to do it or to to help people out, and he they came to him like for all sorts of advice. He was, he only had a fourth grade education, but he was very intelligent, and he had the most beautiful handwriting. And somehow, everyone in town seeked his advice on different matters, and he was well-respected. He was like like an uncle to the younger people, a father figure, but he was just well-loved. I just can't describe it to you how well thought he was of, and how even when the when the Jewish law started to come in existence, people would say, but Uncle Ehrenfeld, this this can't apply to you. You're different, and you served in World War I, and he was wounded, and served like five years, even. And um, and it seemed like nobody thought that it should apply to us, that we were, we were exception.

Did your mother work with your father and his business?

Well, I don't remember my mother too well because I was seven years old when my mother died. She died of typhus, and actually, she, I also lost a little sister at the same time. The whole family contact contact contacted. You have to help me out sometimes. The disease, they went to a wedding, and evidently, they had some, they got some kind of food poisoning, but they all became very, very sick, and with typhus, and of course, with no you know decent medication available at the time, we lost my mother, and we lost my little sister. And and fortunate-, the only reason that I didn't get the disease is because I was not at the wedding. I spent the summer with an Aunt and Uncle in in another town. So I don't recall a whole lot about my mother, except that she probably wouldn't have had much time to be helping my my father to make a living because she had so many children, and she was pretty busy raising children. I would imagine, that's what I would imagine happened.

Who helped out in the home after your mother's death?

Well, it started with the oldest girl, and as they left left the home, they either got married or went away to a larger town to to get some sort of an education because the the handwriting was on the wall to begin with that we, even women, needed to to work. And there was no opportunity, really, in the little town I lived in to make a living. So little by little, all my siblings left. And when I was 14, I was left with my alone with my dad. And we did have a housekeeper, but I had to plan the meals, and I was sorta in charge. And also in the store I, not so much in charge, but but I helped my father run it. And and I did a lot of the buying, went to Budapest, for instance, that was just the capital of Hungary, and um, and um did the purchasing for the store. I kept pretty busy, and especially after after high school. And of course, I wanted to go on to college, but at that time, the Jewish laws were already in existence. In fact, they started in probably in '38, '39. And we all felt the effect of it. And of course, one of the laws was that only, because we were 6% of the pop- the Jewish were at 6% of the population, that only 6% of could attend, like colleges or any higher education. They were only, they had a quota system. And so my father said that we had to save those spaces for the boys, because it was more naturally, at that time, it was more desirable for a man to get education than for a woman. So I stayed home with my dad until I was taken to Auschwitz.

Did you grow up in a religious home?

Well, we did have kosher kitchen, you might say. I was always somewhat, I'd be honest with you, always a little bit rebellious. And while I had, in my childhood, I had periods where I was wanted to be very religious. I think I was influenced by people I came in contact with. And I think I think toward the end, I was I started questioning of why all the things that were happening to Jews, all the hatred that was expressed toward us. And actually, all my life, I was different than anyone in town. And I was questioning where, it's a religion you shouldn't question, you just should accept it on blind faith, and I couldn't do it. But my dad loved me just the same. We didn't always agree on religion. He would get up four o'clock in the morning and would pray probably two hours or three hours. And he would never never miss it. There was a synagogue about three miles from us. There was also a little town, but had a lot larger Jewish population. And we used to go, he would go every Saturday. I would usually meet him on the way home, walk to that town, it was about three, I believe I said three, about three miles from us. And we would walk home holding hands. And it was the most beautiful memories of my life, just talking with him. And that's how we would spend the holidays usually. Either I would walk with him all the way and waited for him, play with some of the Jewish children there, and then walk home with him. And that was the highlight of my of my existence. I love my dad so much.

Do you remember the name of that town where the synagogue was located?

Yes, it's called Hajdúbagos. And it's uh, I will have to spell it for anybody who's you know interested. It's H-A-J-D-U-B-A-D-O-S.

And it was a larger town than the town you lived in?

It must have been somewhat larger. My recollection is not all that good. And I hate to say that when I was- I did visit Hungary twice since the Holocaust, I did not go back to this town. And I still intend to go back because I would like to see just the memories it holds for me. And to my knowledge, no one came back from that town. No one lived through.

Did your family have roots that were in Hungary for many years?

It must have been. I couldn't tell you, but just how many generation it would go back. But I had, first of all, maybe in this country, too, nobody lived to be ripe old age like we're doing now. So like I didn't know my grandparents. The only grandparent that I knew of, or I knew was my mother's father, I think he lived to be like about 80. But other from that, it just that was, that I learned that some of them were rabbis. Most of them, I think farmers, which my father was also, and as a young man, he worked as a hired man raising potatoes, or even he was a very hard worker. But he had a really vast knowledge of farming and he was sort of way ahead of his time, that if a piece of land that was worthless, they would give it to him to build it, or rent it to him to build it up, because in a few years, it would be a really good piece of land. So he seemed, I feel that in everything, he was way ahead of his time.

Did you ever meet this grandfather?

No, not that I know of.

Where did he live?

He lived also on a farm in another county, and because my mother died, and so you know the relationship didn't really exist more or less. My grandfather remarried and had another family, several other children, so I don't recall meeting him. I probably did when I was real young.

Did you have any other extended family living in Hungary?

Yes, on my father's side, well, both on my father's side and my mother's side. They had several siblings, and um, so the, so the so my first cousins were actually always my best friends as well. We were very close, and it was seldom that we didn't have someone at our house visiting, spending just weeks, or we had someone who actually went to school from our house because we lived about 13 miles from a larger town called Debrecen, D-E-B-R-E-C-E-N, and that was several hundred thousand population, and open for you know a lot of opportunities, so I had cousins who actually stayed at our house. It was always sort of full house, and my father was very generous to everyone. There was never a beggar that was sent away, empty-handed, and we were always feeding people who came by, and it was always sort of open house system.

Did you ever get an opportunity to visit any of the relatives in other cities?

Yes, see, we really didn't have a so-called social life that would be here because we were not really accepted by townspeople, although I had girlfriends I went to school with, but there was very limited because we were still the dirty Jew, although I will say that there were some nice people in my hometown, and I found that even when the chips were really down after the Germans came, that I shouldn't make a blank statement that they were all bad, but [sigh], but [sigh] the Hungarians are notorious Jew haters, and like in every country, I think, the less educated, the most likely to be, and we were blamed for every ailment the country had, and always the scapegoats, so by the time, and maybe I'm jumping way ahead of time, but it seemed to me like that by the time the Germans came, we were almost, and they took us, we were almost relieved because our lives were no longer safe, and that was mostly caused by the young Hungarians, the punks, who really helped the Germans to achieve their, what they wanted to accomplish, but the Hungarians, I would say they were more open about uh about the the prosecution of the Jews, where, or maybe they were used by the Germans to do their dirty jobs, that we almost felt like like, like a relief when we were taken. I had, for instance, one, and again, I don't know if I'm saying this all in the right order, if I don't want to be jumping, but for instance, after, I don't know, you know, I guess what the state expects me to say, but I think I just want to put, make you make people understand the frame of mind that we were in, that all the years of of prosecution, that and yet the love of the country, which is, you know, amazing to me now, how Hungarians we were, and how we felt that if we obeyed the laws, right or wrong, we didn't question it, but as long as we obeyed it, we we would be rewarded for it.

So I will cite you a couple of examples that even though, that I think my father was the wisest man that I ever knew, that he was also, he also had this theory that, for instance, I remember when I was in the ghetto, I was 19 years old, and we were, this friend of mine from the same town, the girl that I mentioned, or the people I mentioned before, their daughter, and I were the same age, and we were picked to go and go out in the ghetto that was, that the people were already taken from, and go to the houses, and get fetch the food that they left. And that's when, you know, we walked in, and we realized that these people had left and they had no warnings as to when they're going to be transported from there, taken from the ghetto. They already left their home, they were already concentrated in a small section of this town, and and it looked, you know, like shoes on the floor, or children's clothing scattered all over. It looked that like they were awakened in the middle of the night, and taken from their homes. And I remember hearing noises up in the ceiling, and we were German police, I mean, Hungarian police escorted us, and we did the cleaning, and gathered the food to take it back to our ghetto, which was just a small place, like an old factory was or barn was converted into a, you know, makeshift ghetto. And I remember saying to this police, I hear noises, which, I mean, with my present mind, I would have denied it, even if he said that he heard noises, you know. And and so he investigated, and he brought down two young men, who were young Jewish boys, who I'm sure, you know, they they try were escap- try to escape to Israel, is what I imagined that they were trying to do, because that was about the only thing, you know, could have saved your life. But, you know, I was so naive that that I thought, here they are, they're not obeying the law like we do, if they tell us, you know, you pack your things, you can take 20 kilos with you, and you will be taken somewhere we followed, absolutely blindly. And I often think of that, because I feel guilty, that I, who knows, maybe those kids would have lived, and I hope that they lived in spite of my action. But I went back to the ghetto, and and everyone, I told my father and he, and told the other people, they all thought I was a hero, because this is our problem, that's why things happen to us, because because of people who don't obey the law. Now, this just sort of blows my mind, that what how we were, and how naive we were. But this is how it was, and I can't take it back, you know. I dwell on it sometimes.

When the war broke out in Europe, were you pretty well informed of what was going on, the Nazi invasion of Poland and so on?

Yes, we were, and we had a lot of people, for instance, stopped at our house, who were escaping from, mostly from Poland, and and a were trying to make it south to the sea, you know, to to eventually find a way to Israel. And while my father always helped them, he always gave me the impression that, well, that can't happen to Hungarian Jews. First of all, we were very assimilated. Close to, like the Germans were. And, for instance, I never learned to speak Yiddish, because by the time, you know, I came along, it was, the thing was, to be a Hungarian foremost. That was that was our country.

When things started to change, what change, what notices did you have of change taking place?

Well, first, it affected you, I suppose you would say financially, if you run a business. There were all these quotas. And first, they took away your right to, for instance, in our case, to sell tobacco, to sell liquor. And at first, because my father was, well, I don't know how many medals he had of bravery and so forth, that he, at first he was, we were obviously an exception. It didn't apply to us. But toward the end, there was no excuse for anyone. If you just had a [renter?], you could just trace that you had, like, out of eight grandparents, if you had one grandparent who was who was Jewish, you were considered Jewish. And for some reason, they they could detect, or, you know, it was a fantastic network that they had to have, that, for instance, we had a doctor in our town who was Catholic, and so was his wife, and they were very much in the middle of the social life of the town. He was the only doctor. He died before all this happened, but his widow was always entertaining, the elite, and nobody, I never dreamt that there was any anything connected to being Jewish.

And it turned out that she was, or I think they were both Jewish and converted, like, back in the 1800s. I mean, they were old people, or she was an older lady. Eventually, she wound up in our house because they made our house a ghetto. And so, it consisted of my father and I, the couple that I mentioned before, and their daughter that, they lived in the outskirts, and this lady who came with her fur coats and jewelry and constantly kept crying that I am not Jewish. I believe in Jesus, and I'm Catholic, but it didn't matter. I have heard that people crying when we were taken to the baths in Auschwitz saying, but I'm not Jewish, but it didn't matter.

Katherine Williams. You were talking to me about the two boys that were found hiding. What did they do to those two boys?

I really don't know the outcome. They were kept with us in the ghetto. And a few days later, we were all transported to Auschwitz. So I have no, you know, I have no idea whether they lived.

Can you recall when they formed the ghetto initially?

Yes. I can go back to the day that the Germans came in because actually, I believe it was March 19 of 1944, because actually that's when everything started. It was, we knew we were in trouble. The Hungarians welcomed the German like like they were our savior. And the first sign one, I believe in less than 24 hours, we were required to wear yellow star. And everything went on almost every day. Gradually, our lives became more miserable. And eventually, we were allowed to be on the street in so many hours, only in the daytime. As time went on, all the Jews, Jewish stores had to be shut down. And I believe that, that it started they came in March. By April, we were pretty much confined to our home. And I remember that, as I said to you before, that not all Hungarians were bad. And I remember I had a friend who lived in in Debrecen in this larger town where I went to high school. And she came out to our house. You had to take the train to, you know, to travel across. They didn't have cars. Well, not very many. And she brought me her papers, her ID papers. And she wanted, she asked me if I wanted to use it. And I probably could have passed easily because, as a as a non-Jew, because I was blonde and blue-eyed and quote unquote, it, that is not how they they described the race. We were supposed to be dark, which is a myth. But I know that I was, a lot of times, I was taken for for for Christian, trains or various times in my youth. People would begin a conversation or something assuming that I was not Jewish. So I know that I probably could have, or at least I could have bought some time, but I would not leave my father. And I said, where he goes, I go. And this lady is still alive and visit her every time I go back.

She was non-Jewish?

She was non-Jewish. She was a Catholic, from a Catholic family. And she was wonderful. In fact, she's the one that kept some of the jewelry for my family and some of the pictures that I will later show you. And even though they were so poor, she was one of 12 children probably, and actually they lived in a Jewish section of town, very, very poor. But I am sure that will never occur to her to keep any one piece of the jewelry for herself. And so there were really, really good people.

There was somebody else that offered to hide me. And I did stay with somebody in the same town who was a friend of my sister's, and she was a married woman. And she got- And I tried it for a few days. I was in a dark room. All I did is read all day and slept, and she brought me food. But the bathroom was in the hall, and someone noticed me. And she was afraid that she would be reported, and hiding a Jew was as good as death. In fact, I will go back again to my little town to just sort of give you something that is mysterious to me to what happened to some people who helped us that I will probably never know. But I had-she asked me about after the Germans came, and we were confined to our homes. And for instance, we had people. Our yard was fenced with a, it was a wooden fence. And I remember, and I don't know how these people gave us signals because, you know, there were no telephones. I mean, you can't imagine the culture shock that you would have if you saw how we lived. And this was in this century. But anyway, I remember people handing us pails of milk or eggs through the fence. And I remember good people who, my father always had a ledger that he, people charge groceries all the time. And we had thousands of dollars out. And I remember people coming and pay us, while other people say, why should we pay a Jew? You know, we don't have to. But there were some that were just wonderful. And really, looking back on it risking their own lives.

We had an old man, for instance, lived across the street from us, who was probably in his 80s. In fact, I have had a picture of him. And he was a widower at the time. And and he didn't have much education, but he read the he knew the Bible. He could quote you anything from the Bible. That you ask for it. He just knew it. And and he was always able to refer to the Bible or to compare any life situation. He was really, really a wise man. He came to our house every night. And my duty was, after dinner, we would sit down next to the fireplace. And I would be reading him the editorial of the paper that was, that came, that was probably were the only ones that received a Budapest, a paper from Budapest. And that was our evening. And then he would go home and he would go to bed. And this, the same man, very, very simple Hungarian, after the Germans came. And one evening, one night, we heard a lot of commotion. And I may be getting ahead of my time, because to start out with, after they came in, and we were confined to our homes, for instance, all our windows were broken in, were broken. And I don't know if anybody's familiar with how Europe, our little town in Europe, how the houses are built, but they faced the street. There is really no sidewalk, except just a muddy plain where people walk. And our windows opened right on the street. And I remember the stones and you know people yelling, Hungarian young men, and broke all our windows. So then my father, the next day, went out and and um, uhm put lumber you know on it. So like it was it was it was dark. Not only not only our lives were dark and gloomy, but actually physically the same, you know, because our house was now in complete darkness. And I remember one evening, or late at night, when they were knocking on those windows and yelling at my dad that, we brought the German soldiers, and you bring Kati, which was my nickname, you bring her because they want her, the Germans want her. Of course, the Germans would not have known that I existed, you know, they had to be shown. And of course, they were willing, they were all drunk, and I hid under one bed. And my father, who fortunately spoke German, in fact, he spokes like seven languages, he talked the Germans out of it. And and it was just amazing that, you know, that he was able to do it, and he said that I wasn't there, you know, welcome to come in and look. But they just left. And after that, every night, I went over and slept in this man's house, the nice old man. And I had a blanket that I took with me.

And eventually, the reason I even sort of wanted to mention this, because even I did not go back to Hungary. I never wanted to see Hungary after after Auschwitz. But some of my sisters did. And this old man, by then, was pretty old and pretty sick. But he kept saying that I will not die until my dad comes back. I want to see I want to see him. I have to see him. And I refuse to die. But finally, because he did die. And but his wish was to be buried, wrapped in the blanket that I had taken to his house. So you see, there were some nice people.

And two other instances that will always bother me, as long as I live. There was a young girl who, amazingly, I wasn't that friendly with her before the Germans. She was maybe a year or two older than I am. But she was very kind to me, and her family. And, you know, a young girl, and she's confined to house. And she used to come over. And one day, she said to me, let's go to the movies. The movies consisted of mostly German propaganda films. But it was something to get out for, you know. I had on my yellow star, by then of course, we had to wear a yellow star. And we walked arm in arm. And I had, as I recall, some sort of a jacket or vest. And the yellow star was covered. And evidently, somebody reported us. And the next day, they came in and arrested me. And I begged and cried.

And, you know, and my father, who, everyone owed him a favor, actually, in the town, you know. But there was no mercy. And they took me to jail. And finally, we had a, I didn't remember. I have some memory loss, I'm sure, due to all the things that happened to us. But when I went back, we had an old lady who was our housekeeper and later on just came to clean. And she, so she didn't live with us. At that time, she was already, you know, married and had a family. And she asked me if I remembered when she came and got me out of jail. And she claims, and I'm sure it's true, that my father sent a message to her and said, do something, intervene, if you can, to get my daughter home. And she walked this town like eight miles away where I was put in jail. And I don't know what all she did to get me out. But but I know nothing stood in her way. And she said, don't you remember, we walked eight miles home and how happy your father was that you were home. And, but the the young girl who, I was caught with walking, you know, arm in arm. I mean, this was, it was unheard of.

And when I went back, the first time I went back in 1985 with my three sisters and my my beautiful daughter. And I asked about her. She lived on the same street as I did. And so did another girl, or now its a woman, who was my closest friend in town. But she sort of, I think she was scared. And like all of them, they dropped me. And, but this, I said, whatever happened to Julia, it was her name. And she says, you know, she died right after you left. I said, I said, what do you mean? What did she die of? And she says, oh, of natural causes. And that's all it was said. And nobody would ever comment on it anymore. So this was one mystery that really bugs me. And I seem like the two times that I was back in Hungary I was always in a hurry for one reason or another, I was working still and was on a short vacation. And I still want to go back and find somebody of her family, if they could give me some light on it, because it's hard for me to believe that a 20-year-old girl just, you know, up and die, for no reason at all. So that was one mystery that will always, you know, puzzle me.

And then there was a man, a teacher, who had a family, but he was so kind. He was a young man that he used to come over after we couldn't go out on the street. And he would talk to my dad. We would do crossword puzzle together, and we you know, and talk about- He would bring us news of the outside. And and he, you know, he gave us encouragement. He told us, the war will be over soon. You will be back and you will see. Everything will be just fine. And I just can't tell you how he was to us. And he would sometimes, when our gate was locked, because as I said, there was no telephone. And we didn't see him come. He would jump over the fence to come in. And just to keep us, you know, informed, he brought us money, you know, to have or to take with us. And when I went back, I said, and I knew where he lived, and I said, are they still here? Whatever happened to him. And the people in the townspeople said, well, don't you know, he committed suicide the week after you were taken. He went to the cemetery and one of the graves shot himself. And, you know, that just, again, is a mystery. Was he found out that maybe that he was sympathetic to Jews and he was threatened and that was his answer to, you know, I'll probably never know. But it certainly is enough to make you make you think.

You were mentioning that you were taken to jail. How long did you serve in jail?

I think it was just like overnight, I believe.

Were you arrested by the Germans or by the Hungarians?

No, by the Hungarians.

Did you see a lot of activity with the Hungarians cooperating with the Germans?

Oh, absolutely. As I said before, they treated the Germans like they were their savior. And this will solve everything. There will never be any poverty once the Jews are gone and the Germans will will help them get rid of all the Jews. That was that was the feeling. That was the newspapers, the radio. Everything was full of hatred.

From the time you were confined to your own home, which was its own little ghetto, where did you go from there? Were you deported to another ghetto?

Yes. I was, I believe that, again, the Hungarian police came and told us to pack just so much clothes and food and how many pounds. And we were taken by horse-drawn wagons, of course. And then I remember there were no room except for the suitcases of the wagons. And I remember begging and letting my father ride on, you know, next to the driver. Because he was sixty in his 60s. And, of course, he was considered older. He was older. And I can't remember the details, but I think part of the time they may have let him or some of the older people. But the rest of us just followed the wagon. And it had to be a lot of miles. As I look at the map now, probably as far as maybe 100 miles.

Were there many of you being deported at that time?

Yes. This was in a certain, like, would be a county. There were several hundred, but, you know, not really a large group in comparison to, you know, a larger town, but all the Jews from this certain county. And I can't tell you how large it would have been. But there were several hundreds of us.

How were you treated as you were being marched off by the people?

Not very kindly, but I don't recall a lot of brutality at that time. Nothing in comparison to what I saw later. I mean, not that this was the normal. But, you know, you compare. And that looked to me like it was it was fairly decent. We had to supply our own food.

Did you attract the attention of the Hungarian people?

Yes. There were a lot of shouting in the towns. And some was very, very brutal and and and horrible, you know, joy that we were leaving and name calling and so forth. And, but I think I saw some tears. And even after I was, that we were so they interned us in what's now called Oradea. I believe it's O-R-E-D-A, maybe, D-O. It's a it's a Russ-Romanian town, fairly large. And after First World War I, that was part of Romania. But then Hitler gave Hungary back because we were such sympathizers. He gave us back our old territory. And that was another reason why the Hungarians worshiped him because, you know, he gave us our old borders that were before World War I. And so at that time, it was under Hungarian rule. And we were, interned it seemed to me like it had to be an abandoned factory. This town had a lot of Jewish population, but they were already taken. We were we were from the outside. I'm trying to use the right word. We were considered, you know, a section of people who lived out in the country, I guess you would say. And the city people were already taken. And that's the ghetto that I went to get food from for ourselves, that whatever they left behind, you know, that we can exist on. Because they didn't provide, I don't recall them providing any food. We were supposed to take our own. And then-

Were there very many of you in this a warehouse?

Well, quite a few hundred. But we had, for some reason, they had, as I recall, I know we slept on the floor, they might have even had some mattresses or some of the blankets, probably, that we took with us. And each family cooked for themselves. And we were just waiting for our departure. But I do know that we had several people from my hometown, at least two or three I recall, that brought us food, including this lady that I just mentioned that saved me from the jail. And and again, that was pretty risky. But they did come to see us, because we were only there maybe a couple of weeks, because we were deported from there probably around the middle of June.

This was of 1944?

Of 1944

Who of your immediate family was still together, beside you and your father?

Just the two of us at that time. We didn't know what happened to any of our, the rest of the family. My sister, my oldest sister, who was, who was pregnant and gave birth in the ghetto, she lived about like 20 miles away from us in this, or 13 miles away. In this town where I went to school. She and her husband, and of course, her husband was already in forced labor. And she gave birth, this baby, without any any kind of medicine or anything. In fact, she was, there was one doctor, some Jewish doctor in the ghetto, and and who finally, I think, helped. But there was not even an aspirin available by then. And the baby died after a week, and she couldn't even bury it. She put a note on it that whoever finds this baby, please bury it. And this is this is his name. And she's the one who eventually then I met up with in Auschwitz.

Was she in a different ghetto than you were when you were with your father?

Yes, she was. She was. And we left, as I said, we were put in the wagons around the middle of June. I wonder, I hate to jump around, but because something that will connect, I want to tell you one more thing about while we were still at home, if it's of any interest, that, you know, you didn't know what to take with you or what will have of any value that might save your life. So my father and I, he decided that he will put some money in his, in his sole of his shoe. And we had a really good friend, a shoemaker, who came to our house, I remember, on a Sunday afternoon before we were taken. And he took the, you know, the outer part of the shoe, of the sole, and he placed in five thousand dollars in each paper money in each shoe. And which was, again, you know, that could have been death for him. And because that was also sort of against my father's, like, law-abiding citizen, you know, that, but he, but he said, who knows, maybe it will buy a loaf of bread and maybe it will save your life. He was always thinking about me. His life sort of didn't matter. And, and with it something else that, that we, we thought that when we come home, we will have something to come home to, even though, you know, we left a whole store full of merchandise and everything behind us. But some of, we had some valuables, and looking back on it, how naive we were, like, material for suits and things, you know, wool. And some valuables. Somehow we had a big wooden box, and he put it in, we placed the valuables in that, and in our back, in front of our house, in the back, where there may be a little, you know, flowers. He dug a hole and put this box in one night, and, and covered it up and replaced everything while I, while I stood watching. And it was pitch dark. We didn't see anyone. And then, a few days later, he had regrets, and, and he felt like he was breaking the law, and he said, let's dig it up. It's just not worth it for what I'm going through. And he did.

Three interview with Katherine Williams. Kitty you were saying that your father dug this box up that he'd been buried in your backyard.

He couldn't live with with himself breaking the law and he dug up the box and it was empty and we will never know who took it. I would imagine the next-door neighbor who was still alive alive last time I was home and I accused him of doing so and he denies it and he claimed that he was in the war at that time which I'm sure that he wasn't and he's the only one that could have seen it because we were it was a corner lot and that was the only neighbors that had access of seeing it. And in defense he just kept telling me Kati, which is like I said it when I, like Kitty. Please come back live here and this is your land and this is this is where your house was and you know, please come back. We would welcome you. But but I am just just a hundred, ninety-nine percent sure that it had to be him.

Getting back to the ghetto, when you were, just before you're being transported away from there. How are you being treated in that ghetto?

It was tolerable. It was it was almost better than being in our home. It seemed like while we were confined in our own home. It was sort of free for all that all the hoodlums that Arrow Cross young men. They just had a good shot at us to do whatever vandalism they could they could do or name calling, they delighted in. But I sort of recall almost like a little protection where we were. The Hungarian police was, some of them were pretty decent. I don't recall any really any any brutality. Not even when the two young men, thanks to me, was arrested. I don't recall any any rough handling. But you know the Jews themselves we resented them. Ourselves, which is...

Did you recognize any of these Arrow Cross members as been neighbors?

Some of them I probably did because I knew everyone almost everyone in town. It was, you know, I don't recall particularly like names or anything but at the time I remember expressing surprise or my father did look who was here and it was mostly the younger people.

Were there any Arrow Cross members that had come from other towns?

Um, I'm I don't recall. Not to my knowledge.

How long were you in this ghetto then before you were transported away?

Yeah, probably was maybe two weeks.

And this was about in June of 1944 and where were you transported to from that place?

And we were transported straight to Auschwitz. And I don't recall how long it took. I know it was much more than a week. Yeah, the train moved extremely slowly. My father who was very well traveled and he recognized the territory. He knew we were going through what mountains we were going to we were going ea- we were going north and we were to go back to the fact we were putting them in the in the wagons and- We hardly had I don't remember how many people, probably about 80. I know that we didn't have room to really lie down. We laid on more or less on top of each other. We were given as I recall a couple of buckets one with water, one for toilet. And at first we had some modesty left and I remember holding up a sheet or something before somebody used the toilet but later it really didn't matter and I have never seen a dead body before I was very shielded as a young girl and that's the first time I have seen anybody dying right in the wagon. The heat was unbearable I-I just I can't even describe it to you what it was how you know once in a while somebody would be lifted up and to look out to see where we were but you know what what country or what territory. And we knew that the direction we were going and we knew that it were very mountainous. And we were passing through Czechoslovakia. And yet the trip like like it it took forever, but I remember at one point, before we left the Hungarian border, the Germans took it we were we were turned over to the Germans and the German soldiers came, opened the door of the wagon and and and said: If anybody has any valuables now is the time give it up because you're going to go through an x-ray machine anyhow and whoever is hiding anything will be shot so better do it now, you know and and so my father and I you know, we talked about what shall we do about the money in the shoe and we decided to give it to them.

So with some kind of whatever pocket knife or something he had he took out the money the rest of the wagon, the people they were divided in in opinion as to whether we were right or wrong they were they were blaming us that that's why we're in trouble people like you who's hiding things when you know you're not supposed to do this. And there are people who understood and so my father who as I said, he spoke German and and could get along with the German soldiers and handed it to them and they they left in a few hours later they came back and they had bread. I couldn't tell you long, like this French loaf type of bread. Probably 60 loaves like like, that everybody could have a loaf of bread, which was you know by that time we were completely out of food and they gave us water. And from then on and the rest of the trip, we were getting bread where nobody else was and almost, you know ample supply, and water. And then everybody of course in the wagon, they did a turn about it and they thought you know we were we were just like my father was just great for doing it. Of course other people had had some jewelry. But this you know, these soldiers can go out and five thousand dollars pengos which was about the same as five thousand dollars here and this was five thousand in these shoes. So you can imagine that what they profited, you know what a few loaves of bread you know did did for us and and and what ten thousand dollars did for them.

But this this instance or this seem like it haunted me all the time until I really believed that there was such a thing as that people were gassed. I was ever so naive that all the time while I was until I was liberated and even long after that the picture in front of me was one and only one thing, that my father and see it was always muddy in in in Auschwitz and and my vision was that I seeing him with this shoe sole you know torn off, that he's in the mud. He's getting cold. And my poor father is you know is suffering, he's getting cold and it was that I naturally I always blame everything on myself. That maybe we, you know, we shouldn't have done it. It and of course none of us got back our own shoes in the first place. I didn't so how could I think that he was treated differently, you know, I could not believe that that he could have been killed and he never needed the shoes.

Before you were sent to Auschwitz on this in these trains had you heard of Auschwitz before or heard any rumors of what had been taking place?

Well, I have heard a little. But again we could not believe that it can be true. We thought it was people makeup stories, but my oldest sister I didn't know if I mentioned it my next to my oldest sister who lived in in Budapest wasn't married or widowed by then. Her husband, you know, also killed in a forced labor like all Jewish young men. She was on a train and she was the day the Germans came in and she was arrested and then of course with her Jewish paper you know, you have to have ID and she was taken. We nev- we haven't heard, didn't hear from her for weeks but finally we got a postcard which we were all required to send even I was to relatives in Hungary or whatever that we're fine. And she so she wrote we're up in beautiful mountains and and we're working. But you know everything is just I just want you to know we're we're spot. But it was not, it was some kind of a sea, as I recall that the postmark, it wasn't Auschwitz. Some kind of a German town. So we we thought she was you know, she was fine and we're just going to out wait the war and it's going to end and rumors that will be a relocated in Africa or you know just any place where we are safe and were you know not hated and we'll be all together. And I was I was so naive and I don't know whether it was you know my little town upbringing or or just. Why that even when when finally we were finally, when we were in Ger- in in Auschwitz that I heard the cries at night. I heard people yelling helfen, help help help and and people were saying around us that they're killing the gypsies. And course later we learned that sure enough that's what it was. And the gypsies, who for years, they were, they lived as a family and they worked in the gas chambers and you know, they and they knew everything they knew what's going to happen and Monday were herded up. It was soon after we arrived in Auschwitz and I remember it was a clear night except for the smoke and for this horrible smell which I was in probably what they would call now denial. That I did not really want to believe. I wanted to believe that my father is fine and and everybody else is and here, you know here we were and and still I could not believe it.

Can you describe your arrival at Auschwitz?

Yes, it was as I recall it was daytime and we were so glad to get air when they opened the doors of the wagon and and of course we see these striped uniforms, young men. Yelling yelling in Engl- yelling in German raus raus, you know get out fast fast los los you know, fast. And and we would ask them in Hungarian who are you because you know, obviously they weren't German. And and they were the kapos, like they are. And they were Polish or they were Czechoslovakian some, you know, talked Hungarian most of them didn't but they were extremely cruel. They were hitting people and we of course, we wanted to get our suitcases and they said you'll get your suitcase later and and we had to line up and I was next to my my my dad and next to me was this Hungarian girl from my hometown. Her name is would be... I'm trying to think what it would be in English. It isn't important. But if I do refer to her maybe it would be Ilona in English and and then you know her parents and then there was who I didn't know Mengele but he he was beautifully groomed and the the picture of the opposite of of what what we were like, you know. He he was and he had dogs and he had his whip and he was tall and he was handsome and he he had on I think white sort of a breeches type of pants. And and extremely well-groomed. And he would just show his his, with his whip show show the way for us to go. And so he pointed we were actually facing just like I am facing you now and he pointed for me to go to the right and for this young girl from our group of people and my father and and this couple from my little town to go to the left and I hugged and kissed my dad and and and and we cried and I and when he left you know, and then in these kapos came and get on, you know get this way or you want to go with him go and but I I guess I believed that wherever you know the fate will put you you should go and so I didn't go with him. So I went with my friend and we promised each other that we'll stay together from from then on which we broke later, but I'll work up to that. And I know I kept looking at my dad and I kept looking at all the old people with the children the mothers with their holding their babies and the little kids hanging on to them and it was it was a would have been a complete chaos, but nobody dared to to yell.

We mostly cries just just everybody sobbing and the kapo saying that you will see him on the weekend or you'll you'll, you know, they are going to the family camp and you're going to work because you're young and but you will see them. And you know, I still wanted to believe and then we were taken of course to the left our our suitcases up in the wagon and handbags or whatever we had. We had to drop everything and and they washed us. I don't remember now how long of a walk it was but it was a long walk and I remember seeing arbeit macht- anyway work makes you free or that that famous saying and of course that just played in my naivety that the yes, we'll go to work and you know we'll be productive citizens again and everything will be fine. Then of course we went to a this huge huge room where we had to drop our clothes and we were, got were shaved and they were all everything was done by the inmates. We called it the half things the the female prisoners who were there for years by then and were very bitter toward the Hungarian Jews because you know, they would say to us we've been here for five, six years while you were going to movies and concerts and you had the Life of Riley and blamed it all you know on us. And they weren't very kind toward us. And when we and then we went to the showers, which of course at the time I didn't know that it we could of had gas come out of the the pipes or we could had water. We had water. And we were disinfected and and herded into these barracks.

Up till this time, had you heard about gas being used?

No and see by the by the time they got to us and the war coming the end of the war coming closer and closer. I think everything was done more rushed than before. For instance, I was not tattooed. There was just no time for it. And I I don't recall that they took us, took our names but as you know history proved that somewhere along the line they did because they do have record of of us or names. And we were given a grey striped dress that just hung on me and I believe wooden shoes. Yes. And no underwear or anything and when we looked at each other, you know bald we hardly recognized each other and you know, but by that time it just seemed like you you had no privacy. I mean you weren't even like a human being, you know, seeing all these naked people and I can't describe that the feeling you have it's you are ripped beyond any humanity there is just like animals or worse. And the barrack that we were in it was sort of a makeshift. For instance, the earlier barracks had been, had bunks, you know, maybe 20 people to a bunk, but still they were elevated and and had resembles of of something. We slept on the floor. The thousand Hungarian Jewish women who were put in this barrack that was just put up just on the bare ground and and the and no room to even to lie down, and and we were given this a dish that we elevated our heads, try to sleep, or on top of each other. And I remember moans around me for instance somebody who had a diabetic reaction which you know, I didn't know what it was, died right there and they were pulling out bodies left or right and and the you would call the streets I guess. It's the way that you know, the barracks were built or several section of barracks and there was a kind of like a road and you see people, these kapos, the uniformed inmates pulling the wagons with bodies hanging. Oh, you see an arm see a leg, a head hanging off of these these makeshift wagons and taking them but somehow you became immune and I still believe that my father's okay.

This is what will forever puzzle me. And we were there probably probably a week. Every day we it was the same routine. They got us up at, well, it was still dark probably four o'clock. The mornings were cold. The days were hot. It rained a lot and we had to stand to be counted that they called it cell appeal, you know five in a row this way and and heaven help that if somebody would faint or I mean we held each other up. We did everything in our power to you know to stand up. And there were the German officers who really didn't come all that close to us because you know, they didn't want to dirty them their hands with the dirty Jews so they had all all the dirty work was done by by other Jews and. But the German they had a lot of German female soldiers they did the counting. I don't think they trusted another inmate and, but they would with their dog on their side and their whip and they would count and and sometimes punishment whatever the we didn't know the reason sometimes we would stand for hours. Sometimes it would be shorter rain or shine, it didn't matter and we would get that dish that was given us at the beginning we would get some kind of a brown liquid that supposed to have been some kind of a like coffee. But it was like muddy water, but it tasted by that time it even that tasted good. We would get a soup, uh, that was I know that I recognized uh leaves of trees that were cooked and that was the green and then we would get some bread at night. And there were rumors that that came from the red cross that wasn't the German generosity that gave us the sometimes a piece of margarine and and sometimes a piece of baloney. And this bread that that we treasured and we didn't want to eat it all at once. So so we would ration ourselves for four or five different meals it would it would cover and a lot of people would fantasize about food and recipes and that's something I I didn't go for.

I think I lived in my own little world believing that almost almost like um my time safe um Anne Frank, that I still believed that people are good and that we were going to be all right. And about I suppose it was about a week passed and because every time every day new new arrivals new new transports and we we would rush if there was a fence between us if they happened to be in a different what they call lager. You know everybody would go to fence and yell, you know, where are you from and they were all Hungarians. And um pretty soon, I found out that there was a transport that just came from Debrecen and which is where my oldest sister lived, who just had the baby. And we found each other and of course go she was in a different barrack going from one barrack to another or move so to speak was absolutely forbidden, you know. But I when I saw her and I realized she just had a baby. She was like a zombie. And I wanted to be with her of course. So because she was from a town where there good lot of Jewish population and she knew a lot of a lot of people in in her, you know surrounding her, she wanted to stay with those girls. And and actually, I had some classmates that were with her and I begged my my friend from my town please come with me. And she said, you know what? We promised that that we would not separate and please don't leave me. I said I can't do it. It's my sister and I and all of a sudden here I'm 12 years younger and I became the mother, she became the child and I wanted to look after her and that's all I wanted to do. And so I broke my promise and left my friend because she would not come with me. By that time she made a few friends. She says, I won't mess with with fate I will stay and so I I moved and the barrack that she was in nobody ever heard one survivor. When I went back home and home. Qualified, and the the brother to my friend said I Kitty I have been searching for years see what happened, my only sibling, you know. He went back to Auschwitz. He traveled all over and never found anybody that knew anything about her. And so, you know it's it's it's a my feeling is that they must have been gassed because somebody usually out of a thousand a few a handful usually survived. But not out of that group and maybe it was just a whim of some some German officers that said you know, let's gas these people because there's no trace of them at all. And I so uh with my, everybody, you know the rumors were rumors were always if there's a transport try to go on the transport because that meant life. Get out of it, whatever at any price

Williams. Kitty, you were telling me that this friend of yours that you were, had this bond with, she was lost at Auschwitz.

Yes.

Then what happened when you went to the barracks where your sister was?

I tried to take care of her as much as I could. I don't know if I said it on the tape before that even though she's 12 years older than I am, I became the mother and she became the child and I tried to look after her and I remember and in fact she mentions it the fact that that I fought for her and I tried to get her water. There would be a water tank that would come maybe once a day and there would be thousands of people and I who had been never been a very aggressive person but for her, I would do anything to get her water and I remember that one time I came back she tells me my face all blooded because some kapo hit me because I was trying to get the water and I spilled most of the water and the blood didn't bother me but the fact that I didn't have very much water for her that bothered me and she was still you know just giving birth recently and losing the baby. She was in in very sad shape both physically and mentally but having each other was the greatest thing that could happen and so naturally you know I wanted to save her and she was too weak to really to fight for herself but we, not just me alone but, she was always loved but she's a lovely person and she had many friends and we all sort of banded together to to give her some support amongst impossible situation and I know that all together I stayed in Auschwitz until October October 20th is when I was I was transported from Auschwitz. So it had to be what I'm talking about nine weeks maybe from from June that we were together and and I she was getting I felt somewhat better and so this one day we were told that you know to form a line and we were taken again to the baths which we occasionally we would be taken to.

The Germans are pretty fanatic on hygiene and so we were always disinfected and so we heard-there were rumors that this is going to be a transfer that we're going to be transferred from from Auschwitz and as we were of course we were examined many times and that the final examination by that time it was like real late at night we were examined this German officer noticed a female officer noticed that my sister had milk dripping from her breast and she kicked her out of the line she had to and I wanted to go with her. I couldn't I and I was just devastated people who who know me and and I have had contact with since they said that I cried for days. We were separated and and it was it was the most horrible thing that could have happened to me I think I would have given my life and being separated she was to me also like like a mother you know she was practically raised me and it just I don't think during the entire time in camp that I ever got over it and I you know as it turned out she had a horrible story that that she was near death several times she if she suffered so much and I was rather the fortunate one because we were taken to a camp in Germany it's a work camp it was a work camp and we were treated reasonably well.

While you were still in Auschwitz did you have a job or did you work?

No no actually only the privileged work that you had to have an in or you know somebody to be in the kitchen or you know where you could get a little food or work at the hospital or clean latrines I mean that was a privileged job because you probably would get an exteration and I was never privileged I was beaten several times going to the latrines or various times but I was I never worked.

Can you tell me something about having been beaten while you were in Auschwitz?

Well just usually you know whip here and there it was just wasn't something, happens every day you know it's whoever happens to be in somebody's way a kapo's way they were very very brutal I don't recall ever having a kind really a kind word from any of the kapos. They were very I think they were bitter and they did the job I and now looking back on it you know they wanted to survive and that was that's how they survived.

How did they take you then from Auschwitz to the labor camp that you went to?

We went by wagons but it wasn't nearly as crowded as it was before. I remember stopping at several German towns a stations well you know train station and looking out and seeing people, normal people and I couldn't believe it that life goes on that people are well-dressed to women and hats and handbags and you know the the way people look and they're waiting for train and low children it was it was unbelievable to me and I don't recall how long it took us on the train but and and I have as I said before I have some memory loss yeah but I I do remember that it was like heaven when we arrived and I remember that I looked there were windows in the barracks and there were actual bunks and I think there were only two of us to do that bunk and there were it was there were rooms I mean maybe we had 30 people in a room but there were rooms with regular windows and I remember opening the window and seeing my reflection and and saw myself my har- my hair it was like stuff started to grow a little and I thought its the most horrible sight I've ever seen anyway but but the things that we take for granted were unbelievable it was like a miracle.

On the train ride from Auschwitz to this camp did that take very long?

You know I don't recall. Probably a week or more see we were clear in West Germany so we'd have to take a long time but you know this is one thing I don't seem to have much of a recollection except seeing these well dressed people at the train station.

Did the people that you saw, the civilians when you were in Germany, did they see you did they see the people on these trains?

I don't think that they realize we're fairly far away on the tracks they were on the platform waiting for their train and I don't think that they had any clue as to who we were.

Do you recall whether you had food on this train?

I think we were treated fairly decent I don't recall any really starving or anything like that I mean I think we had we have adequate.

When you arrived were you were you still with any friends that you had made in Auschwitz?

Yes they were friends actually quite a few of them were from the town where my sister lived and where I went to school and actually one of my roommates became now my sister-in-law. My brother married her and her sister there's several from from my town or the town I went to school.

What kind of work were you doing when you

We had two shifts, at night, and each twelve hours long. And we were working in a bomb factory but actually they weren't making bombs what we were doing is we were pounding out the dud I guess what you would call it the the shell the with hammers and chisel because evidently you know they they were defected or something and in another place of course they were mixed again and and filled but in the department that I was in we were chiseling out these bombs or maybe they were they weren't that huge I think have to be like is it granite, grain- somebody, it wasn't- it was fairly large but it was the general idea that they didn't see they needed by then the Germans needed you know they were short on resources or the war was was starting to hurt them and with our free labor we were creating we were lengthening the war actually by making you know using up the bombs the defecting defected bombs and making new ones.

Did you have any idea of the progress of the war at this time?

We had rumors here and there some of the like when the Allies landed in Europe and of course we wanted to believe but I remember and again now you will and I know that that I am jumping but I remember seeing a bombing in Auschwitz and I remember everybody had to go in the barracks but I remember staying outside wishing there were a lot of other people that I wasn't alone wishing that the bombs would just drop on us that why don't they drop it on us but in in the towns name where we were relocated called Allendorf or Allendorf in English.

How do you spell that?

A-L-L-E-N-D-O-R-F and I remember given milk that you know it was again something like pocket miracle but later things I read about it is they did it to keep us alive because we needed it as a all the fumes that we were breathing in that was a that helped us. I know that most of the people started to get real yellowed complexion and skin I was really really fortunate because I was I did not stay very long in the factory. I don't recall this, it really, I think it must have been days but again we had at this camp we only had German you know supervisors we had no kapos and but they would pick for each barrack they would pick a person who spoke fluent German and it would make make them they call it block eldest it means the elder of the of the group and they were the spokespeople and I just don't recall how many maybe a few weeks maybe that I worked in the factory and we had sort of a selection we had a big courtyard where we used to have again counted and and give work assignment so forth and there was a German called obviously a German female officer who picked out a few people to dig ditches and because of my as you can see round face which I still had and light complexion for some reason they seem to pick the light complected woman out and I was assigned to dig ditches and that lasted a very short time I remember being extremely tired and I still looking back you know what purpose it was what we were doing but it was in this complex of of the factory which and I don't want to get ahead of myself I revisited in 1991 and while we were in the camp wooded area and we walked probably a good hour to get to work each day with the German guards and we walked through a little town but when we entered our factory we had the impression that we were underground and we walked in and it was just like a city we walked in this door in a like in a hillside and from then on everything was underground and all the years I marveled the Germans because from the air you could only see trees growing it looked like a forest and much to my surprise when I went back it it wasn't that way at all it's a regular town with flat roofs that they built on purpose with trees growing on top of the roof to disguise the factories because that was a famous factory during the war and you know it for the planes looking down they only saw a forest but then I like I said I worked outdoors which helped a lot because I got fresh air and then I had a particular like I said officer in the German, woman who sort of took a shine to me you might say and she asked me if I know how to knit and I did and she said she told me that she will have me make her a bathing suit.

The woman was she was not obese but close to it and it would have been a job but I never did finish the bathing suit she didn't seem to care she every day she said me and we had a bathroom facilities in this forest where we were it's you know like any even in America sort of the same type like log cabin type and but little did I did we know at the time that we weren't the only prisoners around there were it was I find out later that it like it was 17,000 prisoners a lot of Russian a lot of prisoner of war and women, men every sort of it was a really a concentration of prisoners who labored for the Germans and so while I was in this well it was the outer part of the restroom where where I I remember spend my days knitting and ripping so I can knit some more and she the woman would did not really care what I did she used to bring me sandwiches. I mean I look back on it I really don't know you know I was very naive I am sure there was no no it's a puzzle why she picked me some people say because I look more like a German you know with blond hair. Whatever the reason but I know that I was sort of the envy of the camp. And then I would I could even go outdoors it you know I could walk around a little and so I see other prisoners men who were walking around most of the time you know we didn't understand each other they were all for- spoke foreign language and I remember they you know they were they were because they were not Jews they were more free to go about and and and I remember them bringing me food, delicacies like like a coffee cake and I would go back and I would share with my roommates you know and everybody would get just a sliver but like it was every Christmas time something fabulous that somebody but one of the one of them brought me and they gave me their pictures I had two of them and for whatever language we could communicate in you know we exchanged addresses and and things like that that I remember bringing to this country and I probably still have it somewhere all faded out and everything but however I never met any of them later but but as I said my Allendorf life was really pretty bearable for me I was very very fortunate.

A lot of things I don't remember. I know there was only one woman who died in the camp so that I think speaks pretty well for for our life there and she died of natural death and and I went when we went back in '91 visited we visited her grave and there were people told me that I was one that was digging the grave they always picked me for things because I was always sort of hefty and and it looked like I had you know I had more energy and I I don't recall that at all that I helped carry the body I have absolutely memory of it and she was put in a Jewish cemetery they also buried all the other prisoners a lot of Russian prisoner of war buried in the same cemetery. And I can't say that I was ever you know really mistreated in in this camp. Maybe some people you know don't agree with me but but it it when I tell some of some of my sisters it sound to me like today I'm like I was on vacation on a beautiful resort or something. I mean like we had plays entertainment for the Germans with many talent between us. I wasn't one of them, but but we you know it was almost like living like a human being so maybe I don't make a very good story it doesn't make a very good story but yet I'm sure that if the war had lasted uh some of the people would have survived the war the ones in the factory and and you know actually what we did is we helped the Germans by providing free labor.

Could you tell that the war was starting to come to an end during this period?

There were always some some um you know some some rumors um especially the people who who spoke German and yet some of the guards would occasionally give them a hint about about how the war is is coming um and so you know we were always hoping and praying and that it's that soon it's going to to end and finally on a, must have been in March that we were called out on the courtyard. And we had a really a very kind older man whose picture I have and who I may show you who was the uh the camp superintendent or whatever you would call it in English and uh he called us together and told us that we're going to take our belongings on our back and we're going to march uh because the enemy was coming and you know we're going to escape further into Germany away from you know from the frontlines. But first it was pretty well organized. Yes we started to march but I don't know what location I was in this long line of people and we marched through towns and forest and and pretty soon he called again and and by then we knew that people were escaping because I didn't really have the nerve and we there was about oh quite a few of- Well the room that we were in and I don't recall maybe 20 or so people uh that became very close friends and we were going to stay together and this old man doesn't seem very old now but at the time to me he was an old man he he was not an SS and he he told us through interpreters you know that the allies are very close.

Of course we heard bombing and guns you know weapons and everything all along so we knew that you know we weren't very far and he said that that he is letting us go wherever we like to go and just play it safe and surrender to the to the Americans so we were in the fields and forest and begging for food for two or three days until we we camped out in a well it was like a shed in a field and and I remember we had believe it or not we have underwear by then and then we had of course our dresses there was a piece cut off in the back with our and and our number sewn in there so we could not have escaped with those clothes without being noticed. But anyway we I remember it was a Sunday and it was April 1st which is my my father's birthday.

This was 1945?

1945 and we were in this shed and the road is quite a little ways and we see the Americans and I remember carrying up our slips and and holding it up and there were some jeeps coming toward us and it so happened there was a young man from New York who spoke Yiddish and they were just all around so worried and they took us they they got us vehicles took us to the nearest town where they confiscated so to speak a German home and then put us up there and I don't know where the people went but I know and they had to bring us food they are very resentful of course and you know the Americans didn't really feel like if we were very safe because there was a lot of hostility and you know they begrudgingly well you can imagine we took their bedrooms we took over their whole house and but I remember that they were in a shed or in an outbuilding they were cooking small potatoes for their hogs for their. Anyway I remember when I the sight of that and remember I started eating it it like like gorged myself not just me all of us you know that that was unbelievable because by that time we were on the road for probably a good 10 days all together and and food was pretty scarce and I remember pulling up grass and eat it you know our travels so I wasn't missing

Tape 5 interview with Katherine Williams. You were telling me about being released from Allendorf and you were kind of in a forced march at that time.

Yes.

How long did that forced march last?

It was only a matter of days. I don't recall. You know most of us were liberated at different days, but it was only a matter of days that we were all liberated and it just depends on how far we wandered off from the from the group itself and as I told you our German group leader gave us an option to go wherever and so some of us probably wandered off 20-30 miles.

I remember passing a lot of Germans who were in the process of evacuation. Taking their belongings and you know moving away from the front so we try to walk opposite direction, but at the same time we we try to take cover. Slept in different barns. We went to German homes to ask for food and again, we got various reception some kindness, some treated us like you know, like we were from outer space. They had no idea who we were and I I suppose that that we were probably in in some danger but we I don't think we we thought about it our instinct led us you know like wherever we could find some food, pull up some turnips or whatever in the field and just watching the planes and listening to the to the weapons and hoping that it'd be it'd be soon and it was.

You were telling me that you worked in a house with several of the ladies that you were-

Oh, yes after.

When you were in this house how long did you remain there?

Only for a couple of days because the the American G.I.s who just showered us with everything imaginable. Food and chocolate and so forth. They were not stationed in that town there was a nearby town called Fritzlar. You want me spell it? F-R-I-T-Z-L-A-R that was was a an air base that was taken over by the Americans and they felt that we would be much safer so if you can imagine it seemed like it was 20 maybe 24 of us that were put in this were liberated together and put in this German home were trucked to this air base and given jobs, whatever we were qualified to do. Well, I had taken some courses in English so they thought I qualified because I think I knew num- I could count to 10 in English whatever the reason. Well, it was something like at first, I waited on tables and then in the mess hall and some of the people cleaned officers barracks and then later I picked up English really well and and and I also I had some background so in this it was a corresponding course that I took back home and so they needed somebody for the PBX and that's where I wound up working. Um, number please.

How long did you stay on that job?

And I a few months and meanwhile, I met my future husband who was a pilot stationed in Fritzlar and we fell in love and he did not want me to wanted to marry me actually and he did not want me to work so I quit my job and however we we could not get married I was still considered an well once they added me but alien and and also it was sort of unheard of you know for a for an American Air Force pilot to want to marry somebody fresh out of a concentration camp. Somehow they frowned on it and maybe looking back on it, maybe rightfully so. I don't know our backgrounds were very very different and all the odds were against the marriage to work but neither one of us wanted to give up and he was he was sent home ahead of time probably because we were we went to France trying to get married. We but them, you know, they would not recognize that is not would not send me to this country we tried everything. And he finally was sent home and then he sent for me as a civilian and brought me to this country.

Were you able to make an attempt during this period to locate your family?

Oh, of course, even more much before as soon as much before I met my husband that really came much later. As soon as that was the first thing everybody did, you know there was of course, no mail no no communication and just rumors and just people traveling whatever means of transportation that was available to locate relatives and even even then the first few weeks of my liberation of my working for the Americans. I remember for instance that we used to get rations just like the soldiers we were you know, we lived on this base we were put in in one building and it was guarded by an MP and only of like 24 women and and went you know went to work every day, but conditions weren't you know, really really great but I remember getting rations and I would eat everything but the sardines because that was my father's favorite food.

Can you imagine after all this? By then I was 20 years old and I was still thinking that had to be a miracle my father could not have been killed and so that one day I think I came home from work and somebody said there's somebody looking for you and it was my brother-in-law's brother and and you know, he found me and and he said my that he he was with his miraculously they survived they he and his brother from the family. This is the sister who lost her baby. And that they're in some DP camp by that time they established DP camps, you know what to do with the survivors and that my brother-in-law went back to Hungary to find his wife who was my sister, find other relatives and of course, you know, he told me some some of the stories. And that he wanted to go back to Hungary and for some reason I never want to go fucking Hungary. Never want to go back.

Was this the the sister that you left behind in Auschwitz?

No, this is yes this is the sister.

And what came of her? She survived living, she was in Auschwitz?

Yes, she if she wound up I think she was she was taken on a strange enough. She was taken with the transport almost the next day and it was taken from Auschwitz, but she didn't fare so good in spite of the fact that she wasn't and didn't stay in Auschwitz but she was she worked under some horrible horrible conditions. She worked in um coal mine and she tells me that when they when the Germans saw them they were so black that that they were through invaded by the Africans. I mean they looked that unrecognizable. And eventually when she was liberated, but she was half mad. I mean, you know mentally that when my brother-in-law went back She found her on the street sleeping on the street in this town with same dish that she had in in Auschwitz still carrying that using it as a pillow. She would not sleep on a bed and she she just laid on the actually on the street. It took a long time before she functioned normally.

Where did she finally settle?

She settled, she lives in spring Silver Spring, Maryland and she's still alive. She's widowed and raised her children by herself because her she eventually then had two other children But her husband died in the 60s very young and here he lives through Buchenwald is where he where he was with his brother and the only way they lived through they I mean everything that you ever read about it. It doesn't compare the stories that, you know, they told me my brother-in-law they actually ate human flesh to survive. I mean it is beyond anybody's imagination.

Can you tell me about the your other siblings?

It's then my next to my oldest sister then Betty now she is the one that located me in Germany. She was in Auschwitz which I skipped that but it's a you know I guess maybe they're I'm sorry I apologize to be skipping back and forth the the only you know importance of that is that she's the one that was taken from the train the the very first transfer to go from Hungary and she was taken to Auschwitz where she was actually, she was at that time she was considered like a political prisoner or something like that because she was given a number but her hair wasn't cut and they were put to work right away. They were put to work to sort clothes clothing of the people who were sent to the gas chambers, so she not only saw the gas chambers. She had many occasions, she said when she looked saw the bodies and wondered all her life. She would wonder how strong my dad was, you know, was he on the bottom was he because she said they they were you know, like a dome. They were climbing up on top of each other and you know thoughts like that. How, how that could happen in this century that people would be killed in such a way.

Where did she eventually settle?

So she stayed in in Auschwitz all this time once the the chimneys quit operating they were doing some some other work but you know the Germans didn't waste anything and while you know, they were murderers. They were to me. I hope no one, I don't offend anybody but they were also thieves and they they didn't waste any any material. So they were sorting through everything human hair or whatever that they can use and and you know send it to the fatherland to to use it has some good use and so she she stayed there and she was in the death march. And she just barely survived. Only through friends who again, you know bonded together and through joint efforts somehow she managed to to live and she did. Again, she didn't go back to Hungary. She she was liberated by the Russians as I recall and but somehow she she wanted to come to the American zone and to find her relatives and or her family. And she's the one that then located me. So, you know, there was a lot of internet communication through word word by mouth and somehow she found me she located me and she came and she she moved in. In fact we moved in that she moved in my room. And she also worked for the Americans. She also married an American. Fared much better than I did. She lives in Denver, she has three children, six dead children, but her husband died. Oh, I suppose it's six seven years ago and- that's her story-

You had just the two sisters then?

No, then I had another sis-God, you'll, this is going to last forever because I have such a large family. The next next to me old, next oldest, my sister Klara. She had an altogether different story then ours. She lived in Budapest. She and maybe I I made just a little reference to that that by the time the - First when the Germans came in they got rid of all the Jews in the country except the capital which was Budapest and and by the time they got to Budapest they were out of you know, they were losing the war. The Russians were coming in and they were really hurried so they ran out of railroad cars. And so they herded up all the Jews and they marched them toward Germany. That and she was in this march where you know, it was something like like the Death March of Auschwitz, very few people survived, and somebody offered to hide her. Her and a friend of hers and again, this girl would not go with her she said I am not going to I will take my chances and my my sister lived with this family. They they hid her. She had several close calls because this man introduced her as his wife's sister and you know the townspeople got suspicious. There were she had a lot of a lot of close calls, but eventually she lived through and this man this family more or less kept supported her she did because she is a very good seamstress and she sewed for the family and she did you know they had a lot of children and like she did the maid work and she earned her keep. But at any rate, she she's the one that did not go to to camp but she had her own story and not as gruesome maybe but

Is she in this country?

And she's also in this country. She lives in Ann Arbor, Michigan. She's also widowed and she has two boys and about five years ago, her, one of her son had triplets. But I throw that in because it's just just beautiful.

And do you have any other of the sisters beside the ones you've mentioned?

No.

How about your brothers?

My brothers I had two brothers who were like almost 20, 17 years older than I am from my father's first marriage. But of course, I never considered them half brothers even though they were because they were they were loving and brother best brothers anybody could ask for and and they were identical twins. Very talented, very musical and just just full of talent and the one died in, was blown to pieces by description of somebody that thought you know at the Russian front because what they did with the Jewish man in Hungary they took them to forced labor and they barely fed them, you had to wear your own clothes and they were the ones that were sent ahead of the German and and Hungarian army toward the Russian front to to look for the mines in the minefields or you know enough and most all of them were were killed. Hardly ever any lived, lived to tell this. I know to somebody who a man in my hometown who was in that unit on the Hungarian soldier, as a Hungarian soldier and he saw it happen.

My other brother he was more fortunate in the in the concentration camp part of of it. There were some groups, evidently Germans made some sort of a model camps in in Vienna, and I don't know if you know if I have ever seen this in any of the books History books or film that I've I have seen of the Holocaust but yhey did take quite a few families they lived as a family they they were even believe it or not be able to take their own furniture some of like beds and necessary furniture with them and in Vienna and they were given like apartments but in a sect- a separate section and it was somewhat like a ghetto, but but they were fairly free and and and of course he assumed that's what happened to all of us, but that was some kind of a study or some kind of a model for some you know some some foreign countries have something to see and to think that that's that's how they solved the Jewish problem.

And he survived the war in Vienna?

And he survived with his family and then he was married yeah he they live he was married and he lived with his mother mother-in-law lived with him and believe it or not. She was she had been bedridden for ever since I have known them probably ten years prior and and an older lady and she lived through. So you can imagine the treatment they must have had. They came back brought back by train and got back their own apartment and and it like almost like nothing happened it's like the way we were hoping that happening to everybody that they're just taking us out of Hungary to save us from the Hungarians.

Where did he eventually settle?

He settled in Israel and they had a daughter. But he died of a heart attack in some in the 60s. I don't remember the year and the daughter is married and has three children and one just got married last week and and I have contact with them. In fact, we brought her here for some wedding in the family and she has visited here in Iowa.

Do you stay in contact with your sisters?

Oh, yes. You should see my phone bill. Very much so. It's every weekend. My weekend is talking to my family it's because my children live live away also, so yes, I I support the telephone company.

Can you tell me about your children?

About my children. It's when you ask about the chil-who your children and when people say to you how many children did you have? It it almost stops me it it it hurts a lot because I had three children but I lost my older my oldest son. I had two sons and a daughter. I you know try to take a great pleasure of the ones I have and very grateful for it but I don't have to tell anyone who sees this tape what it is like to you to lose a 19 year old or any child. So it's it's a subject I I don't like because I have I have three children but only two is alive and it and it hurts and and I take it to my grave. It will always hurt it it doesn't really let up. I have learned to live with it and I function pretty well only when I don't sleep or you know, it's then it's it's like it happened yesterday. But my other two children I am I am very very grateful to have them and that that that I uuess it would make any difference how they you know, you your children how they turn out but I am I am rather proud of them and and I hope you don't mind if I mention it.

I was a single mother for almost 20 years and I raised them alone. My daughter was two years old when my husband left us and and I don't want to give you a sob story. I think the only reason I'm going to mention this because, because whoever sees this video, I want to say that that a lot of things are possible for us to do in life and a lot of it is your choice and while I made bad choices in my life that I you know, I had to deal with I you know looking back on it I still don't know how practically abandoned in the middle of America not really knowing the language that well not having the education I I have raised my children by myself.

I did not go on welfare, you know, I never felt and I don't want to make myself sound like I'm a hero but I just want to say it's possible you you know, you have to work hard but it's nobody's fault that that I had three children I can't make the rest rest of the people pay for it it's it's my responsibility and and I'm sure that they you know, they didn't have a very good childhood I tried to provide whatever I could I was very limited but you know we managed and and I was so fortunate that both of my children got free scholarships and so I while I worried about their education because this is one thing I wanted to make sure that they will have education that I feel, you know, that's that's the only tool you have and and I couldn't see how I could possibly afford college for them, but they both received unbelievable scholarships my son to Yale and not only did they pay completely his away, but they would give him money for trips to come home on Christmas or in the summer because in the summer he worked and and you know earn some spending money but my daughter got a scholarship to Cornell College. That's in Iowa and it's it's one of the I think a very good private college and again, she got all everything paid plus she got a job right away in the kitchen so she can have spending money so I don't know whether it's you know, it's it pays to be poor sometimes

But at any rate, I feel the country has been good to me it's it's it just somehow or other I I made it through it I remember going for what you tell me when when to stop that you know, I had to go to work after yeah, I mean there were some you know gruesome details but I don't want to go into that and it's not relevant to to this story at all. But I remember going looking for a job and then somehow or other being a bank teller always appeal to me for some reason And I went into a bank and I remember I I didn't know the English alphabet. And taking my two-year-old for the app applying for the job. My boys were in school and and and I said to this man they interviewed me that my this little girl was climbing all over and I said, but I will get a babysitter if you just hire me. I need a job. I won't bring her to work, you know and he hired me.

Six interview with Katherine Williams. You were starting to tell me that you became an employee at the bank, and did you progress in that job?

Yes, yes I did. First of all, I really liked working in a bank. And although the pay wasn't the best, I managed to live on it. I eventually bought a little house and, you know, raised my children. And as time went on, I don't really know why that I was I was picked to for advancement. I was always, had a curious mind. I like to read and, you know, look into things. And I used to go to night school. Of course, I had to take typing lessons and eventually went to a lot of banking courses at night. And so eventually I was picked to train, I started out as a teller, and I was picked to train the tellers. Eventually that, you know, gradually I was advanced to, I was named Vice President and became what they would call now, like a financial advisor. Except I'm really, I don't feel I'm really qualified, but people, especially older people, seem to listen to me or I like people, I guess is where it all starts. And I must have been discovered that by my bosses, that people, you know, evidently liked me as well. So I was offered opportunity to take life insurance class and health insurance class and became a well, it's a licensed insurance salesperson, I guess it would be.

This was when the banking industry became very diversified and they needed to compete with, you know, other institutions and offer other alternatives besides bank CDs, certificates of deposit. So I, in between, I was also named customer relationship officer, it's a long word, but that was my title for a while. I used to call on customers, go to their homes, take them to lunch, generally represent the bank, sort of like a goodwill ambassador. And, you know, looking back, I wound up as actually in the investment department where I retired from in 1990 because the bank was bought out and, you know, the old, I probably wouldn't have retired because they were hoping or expressed that I will stay on. Because I think the secret to all of it, as far as I'm concerned, is that I was never afraid of hard work. And I would I would do any kind of a job if it would help the company. I'm very loyal and I think that, you know, I was rewarded or recognized. But, you know, I, a new company bought out the bank that I was working for and then that's the time that I took retirement.

And since your retirement, have you had a chance to return to Europe?

Yes, actually, I went back in 1991. It's it was due to the fact that I got some correspondence from Germany, from the town where the labor camp was located in Allendorf, Germany. And that's near Fristla, Frankfurt, excuse me, which I mean, everybody would be familiar with the location if I, I think if I mentioned Frankfurt. And the mayor sent me a letter inviting me to a reunion that it's in the planning for the thousand Hungarian Jewish prisoners that were in their vicinity. And, of course, it took probably a year of correspondence and so forth, but it did materialize in October of '91 and it was absolutely unbelievable. I still, it's like a dream.

Not so much, you know, that they helped us financially, although it was a very small portion of it. I believe that like they gave us $500 toward the trip and, of course, free hotel and lodging and free meals while the reunion was in session. It's just, it was just the most fantastic thing that, to me, that can happen, that the German people in this town not only would admit what happened during the war, but would be curious enough to wanting to meet the people that it happened to, to have us tell our stories. And to find out what they were saying is that their parents and grandparents, they're in denial. They don't want to talk about it and they want to know really what happened. And so, somehow or other, they don't, just, I don't know what kind of a means, mostly through Hungarian people that they were in contact with, that, were in contact with, got our names or our addresses, but they found, I don't recall the number, how many they found. There were a thousand of us but 333 of the original women came to the reunion, which is, I think, pretty fantastic considering that I was fairly young at that time that I was with people who are who were in their 40s.

Were these mostly Hungarian women?

They were all Hungarian women.

And had they come back to Germany from all over the world?

From all over. We had people from literally all over, from Australia, I think every continent, we had some from Africa.

What was the reaction of the German people when you were able to tell them your story?

I have never had a reception that, or we, actually, I took my husband and my two children back with me. And we traveled back in history and actually, and we did not answer directly to your question, I guess, because we went back to where I was born and we followed the route, the route, we rented a car and followed the route exactly how I was taken to Auschwitz. And then to Allendorf, probably the same highway that we used. In fact, it actually took me back completely to the 50 years because every time my children would ask me something, if I remembered going to Auschwitz, for instance, what do I remember? Or, you know, would have a question. And you probably would not believe this, but I would think, I would say, oh, I have to ask my dad. Because it was just like I was reliving it, like he was right there with me, you know, step by step. And that it was a shock to realize that this is, this is now.

How was the German people, did they react to you?

To your question is, I'm sorry that I took a roundabout way here. Again, either we met the right people, the people who were interested interested in putting on this reunion. I don't know what to think because I never thought that I would say what I'm going to say about the Germans. That I looked in their eyes and there were tears when they talked to us. The townspeople provided the meals. They even had a kosher table. Can you believe that? They had the, you know, the best of everything that they could do, entertainment and you name it. Of everything provided, the speeches, the people that they brought in, a rabbi. I just can't tell you the extent they went and the sorry they felt for what their fathers and grandfathers did to us. And I got acquainted with a young man who was, well it was actually several people. But this young man in particular who, well sort of everybody had, or each family had, almost like a personal representative of the German people. He was a writer, very well educated, a young man. And he was writing a book on Jewish people in this town. And uh he and there were only two people, two old ladies by that time that came back to this town. And he wanted to write it before they died. They're gone now, but this was, the book is already, I think, was already published at that time we were there. And because he was so puzzled as to, you know, what happened, like he would, they would drive us around this and this was a Jewish pharmacy, this was, you know, Jewish people lived here and so forth. And to think that at least, like I said, this, the people I met, they just went out of their way.

You know, you'd be kind of like, it wasn't 333 people, that was just the original inmates. But their families, like, you know, there were four of us and many of them brought their families. And to sort of, in this town, I mean, we were, you know, we took over the streets practically, there were so many of us, it's a fairly small town. And the reception we got from merchants, from everywhere, it's unbelievable. And I still correspond with some, or at least Christmas sends Christmas cards of a couple German people I met. One was a high school principal and member of the Green Party and they just, you know, couldn't say enough as to, as to, you know, how sorry they were.

Did you, on this trip, were you able to go back to your hometown in Hungary?

Yes, actually, we started in my hometown. That's where we landed.

How was your reception when you went back there?

Actually, they were very curious about me and they, I'm sure that nobody would recognize me, but if I hadn't introduced myself. But I remember the first time I went back and I had lost a lot of weight for the trip, actually. And people were greeting me, you know, gosh, you've changed so much, you lost weight, you know, which I loved. And I have the contact lens and I said, and what happened to you, you know, you used to wear glasses when you were little and, you know, and they never heard of contact lens. And then they tried to translate it into Hungarian, which is impossible. So it was a riot. The ones I met, they were, you know, very friendly and however, I really didn't stay that long to find out any how the feeling is.

And I do know that of all countries in Hungary, I mean in Europe, probably Hungary is the most populated by Jews. I mean more Jewish people in Hungary probably than the rest of the Europe. So, you know, I wasn't greeted that "too bad you came back" like you hear in Poland, at least they were more, maybe they're more civilized. I I had visited some synagogues in Budapest and it's the numbers when I say that it's most more populated by Jews than most other countries in Europe. It's still when I look back that the whole population of Jewish populations like 5,000, when you think about that 600,000 died and there were probably over a million that scattered all over, you know, 5,000 is a very, very small number. There are virtually no Jewish people in the country. That is aside from Budapest or some large cities. So that tells you something, that nobody wanted to go back to that life that we had.

Mrs. Williams, can you introduce this young lady?

Yes, she's my daughter, Pamela Peters, we call her Pam, and I hope I don't sound too corny, but she's the love of my life.

I'm sure she is.

As my son, as well as my son, who is not here today.

Pam, can you tell me something about how it's been like to grow up as the child of a survivor?

Well, I think in some ways it makes you feel different than most people, a little apart from people. Maybe in some ways a little special, you know, that you're the daughter of someone who's gone through something as horrible as that and has survived and has come to this country and made a life for herself. So I think in those ways you feel different from most people.

Has it affected your life to any extent?

Well, I think about that a lot. I sometimes think that what my mother went through and my wanting to know as much as possible about it has affected what I chose to do in my life. I'm a defense attorney, and I feel that it's made me think more about people who are subject to intolerance or prejudice, and I want to defend them and reach out to them. So I think in that way it probably has affected my life.

Mrs. Williams, if you can leave one message for your children and your grandchild, what would that message be in view of all that you've endured in your life?

I just hope that young people will be open-minded and will, for instance, I hope that many of them will view some of the videos, that sort of a legacy that the survivors left. And because I feel that only through education that you can avoid future Holocaust. That if they're well-informed and they have tolerance or prejudice, if they don't have any prejudice toward people, that this could never happen. Which is still its beyond me how it could happen in this century, that factories were built just for the sole purpose of killing people so brutally and so systematically. And I want them to remember, and I think you can only achieve it through education. I I only I only feel, or it is still unbelievable and inconceivable to me, that I was picked to live amongst all the people. And I just, I don't know, I'm really choked up at this point because my next sentence is going to be that I would like to dedicate this video to all the millions that were killed, but mostly to my dad, who didn't have a chance to tell his story.

Mrs. Williams, and to you, Pam, on behalf of the survivors of the Shoah Visual History Foundation, I want to thank both of you for allowing us to come into your home and to listen to this most important contribution. Thank you.

Thank you. I, can I add to that that my children been wanting me to do this, tell my story on video, I think, all their lives. And I'm glad that the Shoah gave me an opportunity to do it because I probably would not have gotten around to it.

Mrs. Williams, can you tell me about this photograph?

Yes, this is the train station of the little town in Hungary where I was born named Sarand.

Was this taken on your trip in 1991?

Yes, it was, and it has not changed at all since my school days. This is the station where I took the train from to go to high school from my town.

Can you tell me about this photograph?

Yes, they're my parents. They were married, and I'm not, I can't remember the name of the town, but the year was 1911.

Can you tell me about this photograph?

Yes, this is my father and was taken during World War I. He served in the Austrian-Hungarian Army for four years, and he was wounded several times and was taken prisoner. I don't remember now what country, but he was highly decorated and was, until practically the last minute, was always exception to all the Jewish laws that they enacted in the years.

Can you tell me about this photograph?

Yes, I remember very well. I was about eight years old, and my I'm in front of the picture with the apron on, and my father is to my right, and my oldest sister, who was engaged to this young man and eventually married, were visiting us at our farm. We had horses, and that's when it was taken. It- I must have been probably 1936 or so.

How did you get this picture?

I had several pictures, and some of my mother's jewelry. I left it with a friend who, not only that that saved all the pictures, but also saved the jewelry. And when- She was an older lady, and when my one of my sisters went home, and she sent them a message that, I have something for you from Kitty. When my sister arrived, she- this lady took out her overcoat and her heavy coat, and she ripped the hem, and she took out my mother's gold chain and several other pieces, a ring of mine and some earrings. And that's where she carried it all through the years in her in her coat and saved it for us, and I'm sure never thought of ever keeping taking anything, even if she was starved. She made a promise to me that she will keep it for me, and she did.

Can you tell me about this photograph?

Yes, I was about 10 years old when this was taken. I remember vividly, and it was my first passport picture, and my mother was going to travel overseas, not overseas, but to a different country. However, I never made it, but that was the picture.

Was this also one of the pictures that was saved by this lady?

Yes. All my, all the pictures, of course, since my home was completely destroyed, or our home, I don't have anything from the past except a few pictures and this chain and a few pieces of jewelry that we divided amongst my siblings. That's the only thing that's left from the past.

Can you tell me about this photograph?

This photograph has really a lot of meaning to all of us because this is a copy of a picture that my dad carried in his pocket when he was taken to Auschwitz. This is a wedding picture of my of one of my sisters, next to the oldest, and someone else sorting through the clothing, someone found this picture who knew my sister or worked with my sister in Auschwitz in sorting clothes in a place called Kanada ('Canada'), and brought it to her and said, this looks like you. Could it be you? And that's when my sister knew that that was the day that my dad was killed.

Can you tell me who this is in this photograph?

Yes. This is my son, Mark Peters, and my granddaughter, his daughter, Amanda Peters. She is age 10, I believe, when this was taken.

Can you tell me about this grave marker?

Yes. This is of my mother's grave. She died in 1932, and when we went back for a visit to Hungary, we had the stone restored and also had my father's name put on since he doesn't have a grave.

Where is this cemetery located?

It is located in Debrecen, about 13 miles from the little town I lived in, and this is where there was a pretty large Jewish population, and she died in the hospital there, and also in Hungary, I mean in Charon, they did not have a Jewish cemetery.

Can you tell me about this document?

Yes. This is a copy of the original list of thousand Hungarian Jewish women that were sent from Auschwitz to Allendorf in West Germany. The reason that I have it, I had no idea of its existence until we went to the reunion that I mentioned in the video before, in '91, and this is when we were presented this copy of the original, which was a result of the German people in the town, who were curious enough to find out who we were, where we came from, found the document.

And this has your Auschwitz number on there?

Yes, it does have. Yes, it has. They were very, very thorough. The Germans were, I remember, when we were leaving Auschwitz, we were asked our birth date, our hometown, our occupation, and we were given a number. I recall it, like it happened yesterday, that the Germans, excuse me, they were Hungarian typists who were typing it.