Miriam Grossman Weiner Library Interview

Who?

I mean, were you born in Konin?

Yes.

You were. Where?

Well, I know where we lived. I don't know where I was born because I didn't.

So where abouts were you? Where abouts? Where abouts?

We lived, as long as I remember on Duzy Rynek.

[unclear] Duzy Rynek is the [unclear]

Plac Wolnosci.

Oh, Plac Wolnosci, the Groyser Marik.

Right.

The Groyser Marik.

Mm-hmm.

The Plac Wolnosci

Plac Wolnosci yeah. But it was called Duzy Rynek before Plac Wolnosci. They changed it. And we lived... Oh, are they there?

There's the Plac Wolnosci. And here's the [unclear].

The ulica here, [unclear].

And here's the Trzeciego Maja. Go down to the Plac Wolnosci.

So we lived here in this region.

Not on the square, but in. Do you mean a street or do you mean anything?

No, no, it's in the square.

You lived.. .

Yeah.

Your place was on the square.

But it faced... It faced... Our apartment faced...

Yes.

The Plac Wolnosci, the Duzy Rynek.

So your address was actually the Duzy Rynek?

Actually, yes, the Duzy Rynek.

So you lived, what, about halfway... Here's the Trzeciego Maja.

Yes, it was about halfway...

Not this side.

No.

But this side.

This side. About... Well, from my side is this side. From your side.

Look, here's going down to Trzeciego Maja. There's from Kalisz.

Well, where is the beginning?

That is Kalisz. The road to Kalisz.

I guess I don't remember.

You come down here to the... There's the town hall, the city hall.

There is a [unclear], it was. I think the Mysch and where you say [unclear] lived on...

Yes, they lived here. They lived here.

When they lived here, we lived here.

So about halfway... There.

About halfways.

And your father's name was... Golomb.

Yeah, Golomb. Avrum Dovid Golomb.

What is it? That's a third, isn't it? Avrum Dovid.

Avrum Dovid Golomb, yes.

So, and what was his... What did he do to living?

Oh, my grandparents lived on Ulica Trzeciego Maja, not far from here. Let's say this was the corner. Here we had an aunt by the name Shyjke.

Here?

Yeah, they had a...

That was your aunt.

Yes, this was our aunt. My mother's sister with family.

And her name was Shyjke.

Shyjke

Yes.

Y Shyjke. That's right. And here, J.

KJ.

No, no. Just J. Shyjke.

S.

Not Shyjke, but Shyjke.

S-H-Y-J.

No, no.

S-H-Y-J.

No, just J.

Oh, J.

Just no. Y-J. I'm sorry. S-H-Y-J-K-E. That's right.

Right. And they had um

um they had chocolate and candies. What do you call it? Stuff like that?

Sweet shop?

Sweet shop. That's right.

And, but where did, what, that was Shyjke, there.

Pardon?

That was the Shyjke.

The Shyjke, yes. A little bit further right in here.

Yes.

There was a notion store.

A which store?

Off another end Rachwalski.

What store was that?

A notion.

What is that?

There was ribbons, buttons, thread, all kind of things which are needed to sewing.

Galanteria?

Galanteria, right.

Galanteria.

You know better than I do.

And what was her name, their name?

Rachwalski.

Right.

Yes.

And then

And then after that store, there was another store here.

In Trzeciego Maja?

In Trzeciego Maja.

Here?

Yeah. And, excuse me. And there was my bubbe's store.

Whose store?

My bubbe, my grandmother. My mother's mother's store. And it was Neufeld.

Hold on, that was Mrs. Grossman's grandmother's store. Was that your maternal grandmother or paternal?

Maternal. Neufeld.

Neufeld. Now, is that the shop that people have mentioned to me that sold newspapers?

Um hum. No, no, no. This is another one.

So what did she sell?

Goods, yard goods.

Which goods?

Yard goods. Material.

Oh, material.

Yeah, material.

What was her? That was Neufeld.

Neufeld, yes.

Just further along the Trzeciego Maja from the Plac Wolnosci, the third. So there were three stores.

But there were more stores down here.

Yes, I know, what I mean is. . .

This was the third one.

This was your, the first one was your aunt, Shyjke.

Yes.

And the second one was your aunt, Rachwalski.

Right.

And the third one, going towards the town hall, is Neufeld.

Neufeld. The mother of all these girls.

Which sold materials?

Material. In that store, we had...

She was the mother of the...

Of these...

Of the other two. So these were her daughters.

Daughters.

The first two were her daughters.

Yes.

Right.

Now, we had on one side of the store...

Which store?

The material by the bubbe,

bubbe

By the grandmother, yeah.

Yes.

We had glass, and lamps, and porcelain, and dishes, and all kind of stuff like that. This is what we had together in that store on one side.

Yes. So, and now what about the shop then with the newspapers had nothing to do with you?

No, this was my grandmother's son who died and left a widow, and he and she was in the store. You can't place it.

No, hold on. I'm trying to grasp that. Where was that store?

That was also in Duzy Rynek, in the Plac Wolnosci on this side.

On this side?

Yeah. Almost in the middle, a little bit further to you.

Well, I see. Right. Just there.

Yeah, approximately, yes.

Now, that was a shop.

Neufeld.

What was his name?

Neufeld.

No, but I mean his first name.

The first name. I don't remember if it was Itsek or... I don't remember.

But tell me again how he was related to the others.

He was a brother of the three girls here.

Oh, he was a brother of the three girls.

Yes, he was Neufeld.

So he was the son

of the grandmother

of the grandmother.

Right, of the Neufeld.

And now, and that sold newspapers?

Yes, and books and all the writing materials and everything. Yes, and this aunt had two girls.

Which aunt?

This one who was a widow.

This was her son. The son ran it, was it?

Yeah, but the son died and his wife conducted the business.

Hold on, I just want to switch this off for a minute.

You don't know, but when Neufeld, when Neufeld the brother of these others died, his widow took over.

Yes, I don't know.

No.

I don't remember when it was.

It doesn't matter, but the widow took over.

The widow took over.

Was she from Kalisz, you say?

And she was from Kalisz, yes. Originally from Kalisz.

So she ran it. And her name was Mrs. Neufeld.

Right. And she had two girls and two boys.

Yes.

One girl went to Holland, married there and had a family. One girl married in Konin and had a little baby in Konin. Two boys.

What was her name, married name?

I can't recall. I can't recall, I'm sorry.

Right. It doesn't matter.

The two boys, of course, they all had a Jewish education. And before the war, the younger girl married a young man by the name Fordoinski.

One of the girls married, went to Holland and married, and the other girl married a Fordoinski.

Yes, Fordoinski. And Fordoinski was also from Konin. And he lived also on Trzeciego Maja with his parents on Trzeciego Maja.

Yes. Yeah.

Maybe around, oh, let's say, here was the clock. The clock.

Of the town hall.

The town hall, yeah. And Fordoinski was a little bit further, like in here.

Yes.

Something like in here,

There.

Fordoinski. Not in here, on this side. On this side, here.

There.

I have to have a point.

A point.

Approximately, approximately.

Right.

Fordoinski. With an F.

Yes. Oh, with an F.

F, right.

Fordoinski. So this is one of the, that's the one, the girl whose father whose father died.

Right. And they, he was a Zionist, that Fordoinski young man, very young people. Excuse me. And they went to Israel, before Israel was established, to Palestine. And they brought, yeah, and later on... when the mother was by herself, when she was unable to conduct the business, she went to Holland, to the older girl,

The mother.

and lived with her, the mother. And after a while, the one who were in Palestine brought the mother to Israel. So the mother was later with the second girl in Israel. And when we were in Israel, we saw her.

Really?

So we saw the younger girl with her husband, with Fordoinski. And over there, she passed away, and some, sorry to say that both of them, Fordoinski, they passed away too. But we did have the good luck to see them all, and it was a marvelous getting together and to see them alive. Because if they would be in commune, they would not be alive.

So this, these were all related to you.

Yes, in a way.

But now, to come back to your, to your father. Well, your mother's name, single name, before she married, your father.

Neufeld.

Well, your mother's name was Neufeld.

Yes.

And your father's name was Golomb.

Yes.

Now, how did he earn a living? Did he work?

Well, we did have that store together with bubbe, with bubbe.

Oh, I see. You shared, you mentioned the store was divided into two.

Right.

So your parents helped to run part of the store.

Right, right.

I see. Right.

And we, as children, helped our grandmother on the other side when it was more people or whatever. We were very proud to be mentioned, you know, to be of help. Little girls, but very proud to present themselves as useful children. We have been a family of nine, five boys and four girls.

So really, your father and mother, did they both work in the store?

Yes. But my mother worked more because my father had a stomach ulcer, not one, but many. And at that time, they didn't treat. They didn't have enough knowledge how to operate. So he was suffering. He had a lot of pain. And my mother tried to release him, and he had to rest more at home. But at home, he had the responsibility of bringing us up properly.

Right.

And this is how he contributed to the upbringing of the family. We did have a maid. We did have, we were a middle, how to say?

Middle class?

Middle class family. But it was the custom that even middle class families had maids. And the children had their responsibilities, like one has the responsibility to keep order in the house, and the other helped in the store, and the third one tried to watch the children, and so on. And it was very close, so there was no problem. We can drop in and out, and mother and father had the eye on us, so we were not just abandoned.

So it had the five boys. What happened to the five boys?

The oldest boy was a real studious. He was in Talmud, you know.

He was a Chasid?

He was a Chasid. This was a Chasidic family, the whole family. I was called the shikse.

Really?

Yeah, because I was reading books on Shabbos, not Jewish, but Polish books on Shabbos, and I combed my hair on Shabbos, so I was called the shikse. But it was a beautiful Chasidic home. My father was a Chasid, but he was an intelligent Chasid. We had neighbors of high standards. We had one neighbor who was a lawyer.

What was his name?

Named Wodzinski. And he even had a title like Lord or something like that. He came from a very prominent family.

Well, Jewish.

No, he was not Jewish. That's what I want to say. The association which my father had. There was another dentist in our house, in the apartment, because it was an apartment house. And he was an agnostic.

Jewish?

Jewish, yes.

What was his name?

Neuman.

Oh, Neuman.

Neuman. Salek Neuman, Salomon Neuman. This was also a widow, and she had two sons. One was the. . .

Hold on, who was the widow?

The mother of the dentist.

Oh, the widow.

She had two sons. One was the dentist, and one was a, I wouldn't say a cripple, but he was not ... a retarded person. And we had a lot of understanding for this family, and they loved to come over to us and to be a part of the family. Now, my father engaged in a lot of conversations with that Mr. Wodzinski, the attorney, and with that Neuman. And they discussed politics, they discussed Torah, they discussed law, they discussed everything under the sun. It was very, very interesting, because they had respect for one another, and they learned from one another. And my father was a respected man in the city. I remember he had one very close friend, also a Chasid, by the name Migdal. And I know that Mr. Migdal had also a store, and we ate ice cream there. And he lived in the corner of, oh, I'm going to take this to the tin.

Migdal had an ice cream store on the Plac Wolnosci?

That's right, that's right, on the corner.

They sold ice cream.

Ice cream, yeah.

Now, what sort of period are we talking about? I mean, what years are we talking about?

I'm killed. Dates? No. I can't remember.

May I ask, when you were born? Roughly. You don't have to be too precise.

On my certificate here, I have a date.

Let me switch this off.

Yes.

In the open, it was a table, and there were soldiers sitting around, dignitaries, I'm sure, but not just regular soldiers, dignitaries. And Mengele came in, and he was standing beside with the breeches and the hand with the whip. And here, we were herded before, and we stood, we were standing in a row and moving slowly. And they were looking at us, and I don't know how they communicated, and Mengele made the motion to right and to left. So this is how they came to this place, and I came to that place. And all this was in such a terrible confusion that a person cannot bring these pictures straight out. The group which was, the favorite group which was taken to work, was taken to a shower to clean up and given a garment, and we were all marched to a railroad station. At this railroad station, on the way to the railroad station, the, what do you call it, the one who was supervising us, the kapo, it happened to be a very sensitive girl. And she knew about what's going to happen, because she was there in charge of these selections of these groups. So she was waiting for a moment when no one will hear and see, and she told us in a very quiet way, remember, you are going to live, you are going to be taken to work. But remember, you have to mention that you are not from a small city, because they need intelligent people to work in this particular factory. And they didn't have a high esteem about people from a small city. So you have to say a city which is a large one, and you have to not go over this and this age, because if you are older, then they will not take you. So you have to indent in your mind forever the date and the city, and it was something like a, what do you call it, like a trance, and this is how they registered us in that workforce.

And how did you arrive at the town and date of birth?

Well, this was also a very trying moment, because it was night and cold, and we had only one garment on us. And we were told that we will probably be taken back away to the camp, not just to the house, but to the gas chamber, because there came an order that they don't need those girls. One time they made a request for the girls. When we were there, they said that they had another call, that they don't need those girls.

But you didn't know about the gas chambers, you say? You say that when the selection was made, you had no idea what was going to happen to those who went to one side.

No, but when you, when you how to say, recollect things, then you know what happened in the recollection.

At that time you didn't realize.

I knew that they had taken them away, and naked as they were, and pressed as they were. I didn't know, but we knew that they are gas chambers. So I am...

You did know?

We did know, because they showed us the chimneys, and they showed us the, them, how to say, the smoke.

Yes, I'm sorry.

We didn't want to believe it. You see, it was so unbelievable, even who you saw it.

But I'm sorry, but when you said the selection was made, I thought you said at that point you didn't know what it was.

Where we go, no.

But now you say you did know, that if certain people were selected, that they would end up in the gas chambers.

Because I am recollecting it, you know.

I see. But you've just said that they pointed out to you the chimneys, and the smoke.

Well, this was before, when we were in the stalls, when we were waiting.

So you did...

And they threatened us. They threatened us.

Yes.

We heard about it. We didn't see the gas chamber. We saw the chimney. We saw the

Yes. Smoke.

the smoke. But we didn't want to believe it.

I see.

Well, this is something which you cannot conceive, even if somebody tells you that, unless you stay right beside that and you are shoved into it.

So when your sister and others left, you did not know where they were going?

No. But later I found out that this was the road.

Right.

Yeah.

So that's when you established your birth and where you were born.

Yes.

So what did you arrive at? What town did you go?

Oh, we arrived at the Grense.

No, no. I mean, when you had to give the town where you were born...

Yeah.

How did you work out what town you should give?

Because I knew that Lodz is a big town, because when my mother and father went to buy, you know, the supplies for their store, they went to Lodz. And in Lodz, we had an aunt another sister of my mother who had a store like that. So it was just like home.

So you said I was born in Lodz.

Yeah.

And the date?

1916, because we had to give a date which will not go over that particular date, because they didn't want to take older people. And they want to take only those who are, well, either educated or intelligent or whatever. They had such crazy ideas that there was no system in it.

So that's how you mentioned this because of the fictional date.

That's right. That's right.

But you were actually born in Konin.

Absolutely, because I can tell you that I was born.

And you were born before that.

That's right. Sure, sure.

Okay.

Now, finally, when they said that they don't need anymore us, so the same kapo said, I'm so sorry, you are going to be destroyed.

The same kapo. Was she Jewish?

Yeah, same kapo. Jewish.

She was Jewish.

Yes. She said, I know that I will face the same goal because when they don't need me, they will destroy me. But since I'm still alive, I want to save some. And this was her good deed. I don't know what happened to her because I wasn't there. But some of them were very cruel to their own people and some of them had a little heart. And there were so many stories to say what happened here and there. So we were taken to the Grense the...

Frontier.

Yeah, to between Czechoslovakia and Poland. And it was, by the name, [unclear]. And there was a factory. And we were given different assignments in the factories. One factory was designated as a living quarter for all the girls. And from there on, we were assigned to two or three places. Now, some of them were assigned to the factory which made the goods, the materials. I was assigned to the factory when they made the parts of airplanes. And I was working with the glass on the eye because I had to see the balance of the very tricky little reels and things like that. And always we were threatened that if we are going to make some scrap or whatever, then we are going to be destroyed. Always threatened.

Yes.

Yeah. And this was until the end of the war. And from that time on, yes, at the end of it, I got very ill. And I had a terrible gallbladder infection. I was so ill that I fainted and I dropped, you know, when we were standing on an [unclear], I just dropped to the floor and they picked me up like a piece of rag and they threw me in a corner. Just to die because there was no medical attention there. And I was laying there and I didn't even know what's going on. And suddenly, I don't know how long I was there, but suddenly I heard a cry and a laughter. And I didn't know what happened and I couldn't lift myself up. I was laying on the floor on straw and my conscious came back and forth, back and forth. And I came to and I heard the word, the word, the war is over. And I couldn't conceive that thing. And I thought, oh, I would like to see how it looks when the war is over. So I rolled myself from that place out to see what's going on. And I saw Russian soldiers embracing girls and crying and laughing and having food. The soldiers brought food to the girls and I collapsed. And then I found myself on a horse buggy because they took the very sick people into the hospital. So I was on the horse buggy and they took me to a hospital over there. And there I got the first medical attention. When I was in Israel, I met one of my cousins. And he said, in Poland they called me Marysia. In Polish, Miriam or Marysia. Marysia, do you remember how I took you out of that factory on a horse and buggy and I took you to the hospital? And I said, no, I don't remember. And he said, how dare you? He said, I even put a pillow under your head and you couldn't forgive me that I don't remember because I was completely out. So anyway, it was a very happy reunion that he, a cousin, helped me to get out of there on the horse and buggy.

But what was he doing there?

Well, he was rescued a little bit earlier and those who were able and capable of helping others, they ran to help. So he was one of those who helped the others.

But to come back to Konin, so you stayed in Konin from when you were born until when?

I don't remember.

But you left Konin roughly how old you think you were when you left Konin?

In the 20s.

You were in your 20s?

I think so. I think so.

You left Konin before the war?

Oh, yes, because we lived in Lodz.

The family moved to Lodz?

Yes, the whole family moved to Lodz.

Well, the Golombs.

The Golombs, yes.

Why did you move to Lodz?

Why? Because we were growing up, we were nine children.

So what do you remember of life in Konin? If you left when you were . . .

Oh, I remember that I was attending a public school. I don't remember exactly. There was a private public school or whatever, don't record it. And then I remember that I was in a gymnasium.

In Konin?

In Konin. There was a co-educational gymnasium, a Jewish gymnasium. And I did attend the first few years, not too long. And I did not finish it.

Because you moved to Lodz?

Yes. Because we moved to Lodz.

Now, do you remember anything about the Jewish gymnasium?

I remember a lady by the name, it was, the gymnasium was close to the water, right. And we had to go down the street, steep. And I remember one teacher, a French teacher. I loved to learn languages. And it was the first year when I started to learn French, and that was all. What else do I remember from that gymnasium? My father was reluctant because it was a co-educational gymnasium. But I was glad. And I remember that we were favorite students. My sister and I was in the same class, my oldest sister, when I was in the same class.

What was her name?

Guta, Gutka. And she was married in Lodz. And I don't remember the name of her.

Doesn't matter. But you were good pupils. You were good pupils.

Yes, we were good pupils. And there were so many childish things that it was amazing. Now I, for instance, was a capable student. My sister was a very faithful student. She applied herself very much. It was hard for her, but she applied very much. And when it came to the end of the year, I remember that she got a prize. And I had better grades than she had, and she received the prize. And I remember that I came home, and I was crying. That it was. I couldn't understand such an injustice that Guta did get the prize, and I had better grades. So my mother took us, me and went to the teacher. And the teacher explained to us that it is not for the knowledge, she said, but for her trying. That way she got the prize, and that calmed me down.

You don't... Do you... At one time, the headmaster of that... Do you remember the name of your headmaster?

It was a director.

Yes, do you remember the name of the director?

No.

Was it... Do you remember a man called Leopold Infeld? Infeld?

Yes. It rings a bell, but I don't know where.

He was the director.

He was the director.

Of the school between about 1922 and 1924.

Oh, so you do have more information than I do.

I do. He was the director, but you don't remember it.

I remember the name, but I don't associate it with it.

You don't have, why, most of the Konina I have met have a copy of that memorial book. Did you know there was such a book?

Not quite, because I have never met a Konina. You see, because here there are several survivors, quite a few survivors, but there is no Konina. So I didn't have any connection with any Konina survivor. And I was very anxious to get to know if there is some survivor, either from Konina, either from Lodz, and I didn't need any. That's why I was so excited that maybe you have some names.

So you've never seen this book?

No, never.

Would you like to look at it?

Oh.

You don't read the Polish bit. Don't read the Polish bit, because you find it too unpleasant. But here is the whole book on Konin. I'm just going up to the bathroom for a minute.

How do you remember Jolyshinsky?

Because they were they lived right by the bridge.

Jolyshinsky?

Jolyshinsky, yes.

Well, your father knew him.

Oh, yes. They were also friends.

Jolyshinsky.

And Jolyshinsky, one young man, fell in love with a friend of mine by the name, with a close friend of mine, by the name Greenbaum.

Lola.

No. No. Vinka.

Binka.

Vinka. Vinka. Vinka. She had three, two sisters. Maybe one of them was Lola. I don't know.

No, no. Greenbaum, there are two sisters living in America called Greenbaum. But I think they're too young. Anyway, Jolyshinsky was a friend of your family's.

Yes.

Look, do you remember that?

[Reciting a song in Polish]

But do you remember that song, you remember singing that?

I think so. I think so. Because the words are waking up.

Well, one I could have said, but...

This picture,

yes, darling.

[voice speaking from a distance]

Yeah, I will in a moment, yeah.

This is the Bismaidirish, and there was the shul, and we were going to this shul. This I remember very well. This was a beautiful building.

Yeah.

Oh, what she did, what she took.

I love your hat.

You love me?

I love that hat.

I made it.

She made it.

Really?

Yeah.

Excuse me.

This is Yiddish, I don't understand. I read it, and I see very well. I must have the points, the colours. You read them. I know, God, the points. Oh, I'm going to read them. I know I read the Hebrew, but God, is it yours?

Yes. This is a book about Konin.

This is from Poland?

Yes.

Are you not reading this? No. I know I read the Hebrew books, but this is what you wrote in the Torah. You know, the Torah say nobody abode, because it's art. You must learn them. I learned when I was young, and sometimes I don't like to learn them, and I was young. Sorry, my mother was in war, war.