Joe Boin Shoah Foundation Testimony, January 19, 1996

January 19th, 1996. Interview with survivor Joachim Boin, B-O-I-N, also known as Joe Boin. My name is Ben Nachman, N-A-C-H-M-A-N, interview being conducted in Lincoln, Nebraska in English. Can you give me your name, please?

Joachim Boin, B-O-I-N, J-O-A, C-H-I-M, B-O-I-N. I'm also known by the name of Joe Boin.

When were you born?

November 19, 1922.

And how old are you now?

73

And can you tell me the city you were born in?

Berlin, Germany.

Berlin, Germany.

Yes.

Can you tell me about your early years in Berlin?

Well, my early years were pretty easy and nice, but I got to elementary school and then I started middle school, and then when the trouble starts, when Hitler came, of course, in 1936. He was there already in 1933, but officially he became chancellor of Germany in 1936.And then when it started, I have trouble in the school, and we uh- there were quite a few of Jewish men and women there which had a terrible time to be - being insulted and thrown stuff at them. I stood it out til about 1938, and we left the school, and I think about two months later, every Jew was expelled from uh, from school. We also had then already to wear the yellow star and we were not allowed to use any public transportation. We had to walk wherever we had to go, and it became almost unbearable.

Let's go back to the beginning, your earlier years, before Nazis.

Ah, the childhood?

Yes. Could I hear about that, like the description of your home, your home life?

Sure. My parents had a little house in Berlin. It was Dresdener Straße 132. My father was a CPA, a bookkeeper, and he made pretty good money, and we have been pretty, not in luxury, but we had everything we need, and we had good friends, of course. And then my sister was born one year after me. Her name was Ruth, and we uh, we had a marvelous time. My uncles and my aunts were there, and I had some cousins still living there, and, until, til Hitler started interfering in our lives.

Did you grow up in a religious home?

My mother was very - she was strict kosher, so we had to uh - I went every Saturday to the synagogue, and hum, then, uhm Like I said, we - we had really lived in a neighborhood where we had a little trouble in the beginning, but as more, as more the young people got organized to the Hitlerjugend, they patrolled all the streets, and then when the trouble started, and we had to be very careful. We were not allowed to go out of our house after dark. There was a curfew for Jewish people. So our life was, you know, as a child, we had a wonderful life. I had to eat, I had cloths, I had friends. I also became a club member of Maccabi, where we had different meetings. I was active in gymnastic, and I played soccer. And uhm, but all this faded away later on.

Was the neighborhood you lived in, was it a predominantly Jewish neighborhood?

In the beginning, yes, but later on Jewish people moved. We had still quite a few people living there, but it diminished, you know. Then there's a lot of people which are - had the possibility to leave the country, they did. And so uh- But my parents thought if they moved to a smaller city, that would be nice. A matter of fact, my father's parents lived in Cottbus, which is about 100 km uhm, southeast of Berlin, and we moved there, and there we had an apartment. No, we had a little house too, but then they sold that, and we had to have an apartment. No contact with the outside whatsoever. There, the Jewish community in Cottbus was about, I would think, about 3-4,000 people. And we, we lived mostly in the same area, and so we had some connection. The only problem we had is food. Now, [coughs] excuse me. We had very good Christian friends, which smuggled in for us food, brought milk, and so on. So we really didn't have any trouble.

Uhh, the uhhm - first really encounter with the Nazis, I had on Crystal Night, my -uhhm, on uhhm, on 9th of November in 1938. We all, we had to go out to the market. Well, they picked us up. And in the market, and we had to clean the streets. They put some garbage down, and we had to clean it, and some people had to do it with a toothbrush. We were beaten terrible. I could not understand what happened there. Quite a few older persons, they couldn't get up. They kicked them with a foot in the stomach, some, quite a few died, right there and then. So, at uh . . . Then, when we really knew what's coming, is going to be not very pleasant, my mother's brother, Zalo Sachs, who had a fur store for furs to sell, he came to my dad and said, Arthur, now is the time to leave the country. My dad said,"I don't know why, because I was in the First World War. I have a legitimate business. I pay my taxes. What can they do to us?" Of course, this all changed then.

Was your father able to maintain the same type of work when you moved from Berlin?

For a while, yes, he did. But I told you that my dad was not Jewish. He was raised as a Lutheran. An uh, of course, when people came, you know... In Germany, you have to report to the police when you moved from one place. Even if you only move from across the street to the other side, you had to report it to the police. They knew who was Jewish and who wasn't Jewish. So, the one day, the SS came and took my dad, and told him that if he would divorce my mother, and then he can do his job the way he was doing, and nothing would happen to him. Of course, he said, "Absolutely not. I will not give in to this pressure. I am married to my wife for bad or for good, and I will never leave my family." He came home, and about three days later, I think, they picked him up and he had to go to, uhm, a war camp.

They had war camps for people which opposed the Nazi Party. He had to work in buildings and then the ammunition camp, he was worked in, for a while. And he, matter of fact, and I don't know, he was there for quite a few years. He escaped from there when, I don't know if you remember, the American, the United and England bomb, bombarded Dresden. That was one city which was leveled altogether and how he got out of there, I don't know. That's when he escaped.

So. Did you notice a lot of differences when the Nuremberg Laws were put into effect?

Oh, certainly. It's mostly for Jewish people, not for the others. Like I said, we were handicapped from the beginning. We couldn't go to school, we can not, we could not, go to certain stores and buy our food. As a matter of fact, I was afraid to go to a store because I know, you know, there's a yellow star, and God forbid you don't have it on, and somebody catches you, would have killed you right away. And the situation became worse and worse and worse every day. I recall one incident. I had a friend of mine who, his father was living in the Jewish cemetery where he was taking care of, and I went to visit them because I thought if I go and visit a Jewish friend, nothing will happen. And we were sitting and had coffee, and the SS came in and broke the door down and all the windows and just took the whole family away. And I couldn't do much because one guy took the upside of his rifle and hit me here on the arm. I flew in the corner, I don't know if they forgot about me. Anyhow, they took the family and I went home and I told my dad - my , my parents and said, my gosh, what happened here? This is going to be catastrophic. Is there no other way that we can maybe uhm escape? You know, and things. Now, my uncle was working in city government. Now, he is related to my, he was married to my father's sister, which would not be Jewish. And they're trying to do everything, but you had to be careful too if they were caught, you know, they had to be shot too. So that didn't work out too it. So, we just said, whatever comes, we will accept. That's all there is to it.

How was your relationship with your father's side of the family before this began?

Oh, very good. We had a very, very good relationship. They accepted my mother and us very, very warmly. You know, my matter of fact, I spent a lot of time with my grandchildren - with my grandfather and grandmother, who was working then as a locomotive. He was a driver of a locomotive, you know, this train should go. And he took us many a times with my other cousins. We had to ride with him, you know. But every time I went with him, he didn't allow me to wear the star. He said, Grandpa, what's going to happen if he catches you? He said, "He won't catch you." And I was lucky, I suppose. So it was one - one of the good things. But then, of course, my father said, it's not good to stay in Cottbus because he saw that many of the people after the Crystal Night, many of the Jewish people have been taken away. So we moved back to Berlin. Where maybe there was another situation. Matter of fact, my youngest sister, she lives now in Israel, Christian people took her and kept her in hiding til the war was over. And my mother and my other sister were also taken to a concentration. Also the Sachsenhausen, as a matter of fact. And from there, I don't know where they went, you know, they have no...

Was your father first taken away to this labor?

My father, yes.

Was he in a camp, a named camp?

Ughh, I don't think so. There was a war camp. It was very close to Dresden. I never found out if there was a name or not. It was a camp for political and against the Nazi regime, or like Christians, married Jewish people, and did not want to divorce in order to have a life. I should have found out. I don't know what the name is, if there was a name.

And he - was your father taken away then prior to the rest of the family?

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

He was.

He was.

Were you able to communicate with him during this period?

No. He wrote some letters to his parents, and maybe two or three got there, and the rest we never saw.

Were his parents, your grandparents, able to let you know where he was or what he was doing?

Oh, yes, they did, yeah. As a matter of fact, like I told you, my grandfather was a locomotive on a railroad. When he came to Berlin, he always came and visited us, you know, and make sure that we're okay. And then, until, of course, the time came, where nobody was there anymore. All together, and I mean, my life was drastically turned around. You know, you have to understand another thing, that if you're a young person, and you know you didn't do anything wrong, only because you were born by a Jewish mother makes you -uh-uhm, a criminal. So it was very difficult for me to realize what, and I really, we had, I had about three or four friends, which were of the same age like me. We went out at night anyhow and ripped down the placards, you know, that they put all around, and, but we are always was lucky that they didn't caught us, you know, so we always did it in different places so that people would not watch us to how we do it. But that's really only a thing we could do.

When you were in Cottbus, was the family living in a Jewish area at that point?

Yeah, in Cottbus we were living in a Jewish area because we thought, you know, it's easier to get food and other things, you know, we need, but it didn't happen so. And your reason then for moving back to Berlin was what? Because most of the Jewish people were taken away from Cottbus, and one way or another didn't take us, except my dad. And my grandfather said, you know, please, if you are in Berlin, that's a big, big city, somehow you will be able to hide. Matter of fact, we, very good friend of ours who said, why don't you come and live with us? He had a little house and he built two rooms, I think he built on for his parents, and he, they weren't able to live there, so we moved in there, and that's where we spent some time.

Were you back in Berlin very long before your father was taken away?

No, no. No, we weren't very long in Berlin. My father really was taken away when he was still in Cottbus, but he had a job not very far from, from Cottbus, which is Senftenberg, who, they had some streets, and he could [phone rings] - what happened there? And he could get home over the weekend, but this stopped, you know, so. And then we moved now to Berlin, and from there he came once, and then we didn't see him until the end of the war.

How were you able to survive in Berlin?

How? Not very good, like we said. I mean, the Germans did a terrible thing, but still there were Germans who cared about Jewish people. We have found quite a few people which had hidden children, you know, Jewish, or otherwise, especially on farms. So it's, it's, I think it's very important to understand that in order to, when one race does something wrong, not to judge them collectively, because there's in every race there's good and bad.

Was your mother able to work while you were back in Berlin?

My mother didn't work. She was always a house, a housley. uhm a housewife. But she was capable of doing a lot of things, and she had, she was a dressmaker, for instance. And matter of fact, that's what they had her made when she was in a camp. You know, she had to do dresses for the high officers' wives, orgirlfriends, whatever they had. And my sister, she was one year younger. She worked in an ammunition factory in, what's the name of it, Wannsee. It's not very far from Berlin and where Sachsenhausen is. So that's, I don't know how she survived, and I don't even know how my mother survived.

Did you have relatives on your father's side of your age in growing up?

Yeah

Were you close to them?

Very close. We are a very close family, you know. They cried tremendously, and they said, I wish there would be a way out, you know. But, like, you have to understand that my cousin told me when he went to school, you know, they taught the children, and they scared him and said, you watch over your parents. If they do anything wrong, you have to come and tell us. Because it's very important for Germany that there's no, that they don't get the overhand and maybe try to unsett us or how do you say that? I don't know. And so he told me that we have to be very careful. But they would have done anything for us. But I didn't want that. Because I didn't want to endanger their lives because of me. So I just did the best I can. Like I told you before, I was very, very strong. I had, you know, I was a good athletic person. And so I hoped I would survive, not knowing what's going to be ahead of me.

How long did you then live in Berlin before you were taken away?

I was in Berlin for almost six months.

And what year was that? Yeah.

I beg your pardon?

What year was that?

1930, no, it was 1938 in December. It was 1939 in January. So, and I had been taken away by the end of 1939 and was shipped to Sachsenhausen.

Were you the first member of your family taken away?

Yeah, I was the first one taken away except my dad.

Yes.

Of course.

But your mother and your sister were still there?

And like I told you before that we made out that if by any chance we are able to get out of this misery, we will meet in Holland where my mother's brothers went. And they said, if whatever happens, whoever's alive, we will meet in Holland, in Amsterdam and try to figure out where to go from there.

What were the circumstances when they came to take you away?

Circumstances, there were no - I was eating my dinner and they come in the door and just, "Joachim Boin?" Yeah. They just took me and said, can I get something? You know. You don't need anything where you're going. That's all.

And you were taken to what camp?

Sachsenhausen.

And I'm not the only one. We had to make several stops. They had a big truck, you know, where they put us people in. And it was about 45 people I counted. And we went to Sachsenhausen, which is not very far from Berlin.

Were you taken there by truck?

By truck, yeah. Yes.

Did they have a list of names that they were picking up?

Oh, yes, they must have. Otherwise, how would they know where we are?

And was there any criteria at all for the names on the list?

No.

You were taken to Sachsenhausen, and can you describe what happened when you entered Sachsenhausen?

Well, we entered Sachsenhausen with different people. I saw a Catholic priest or a Lutheran minister. In my barrack where I was, there were about seven Catholic priests. And I asked him, why are you here? So they told me that one morning the SS came into this church and said, this is what you have to preach. And they gave him a written list of what he had to say about. And they, of course, ignored, because they said, I am not responsible to you. I am responsible to God. And that's what I'm going to do. The next day, of course, they were taken to the concentration camp. And there were communists and gypsies a lot, you know. And everybody had a different sign. I think the communists had red, you know, like a little thing. And the political opponents of Hitler had black, and we, of course, had yellow. We didn't have a star then, and we had just a little flap, you know. So it was interesting to see how people were treated until I found out we had to be on the roll call every morning. And when we were standing there, an old man next to me collapsed. And instinctively, of course, I bent down and trying to help. And I felt a hard blow on my back, you know. I fell down to the ground. And later, one of the guys told me, "If you want to live, you just ignore whatever goes on." So I said, "How can you do that?" "You have no choice unless you want to die." And then, of course, who wants to die if it's necessary. But it was a very, very difficult situation.

Can you describe for me your entry into the camp, what they did with your clothing or registration?

We, we had our clothing was taken off. And we had to go to a, like, a shower and they powder, put some powder stuff on, you know, disinfection things. And then we got, like, striped suits. And they knew everything. They didn't ask us, I mean, they asked us who we are, but then we got a number, you know. And then they didn't call us by our names. They called us by number. And then I said, well, you know, that's it. And we were in the barracks. And the barracks then wasn't too bad. We had about, not like later on, we had, like, a bunk bed, which was for maybe two people. We had to sleep four in there, which later on that changed, of course. So it was not very pleasant. But, you know, after you had to, and we were, I was ugh, uh uhm, ordered to go to work on the building streets. It was mostly a troop of young people, which were pretty strong and they know they could do the job. Otherwise, there's nothing special they didn't do much with us, except they, of course, they told us that we have to obey orders and we have to understand that what we are doing here is good for us because we have to learn how to do a job. And they will help us to get on in life, you know, by teaching us what is the right way to live, which, of course, difficult to understand, but I found out very soon that any, you know, sometimes we had, rollcall in the evening and in the morning, we had, if you just looked a little bit different to - to the guards, you know, somebody took out a whip or something and hit you without mercy.

What was the food like in this camp?

Well, the food in Sachsenhausen, in first when we came, we got about a quarter loaf of bread and we had coffee, which was, how should I say, tasted like, I don't know, dishwasher, I think, but that was our food. And at noon, we had soup with uhm - from potato peels and that was our food. And then I found out after we worked that they raised our food rations to half a loaf of bread a day. Which was good. But you did not have any margarine or butter to put on the bread, only the bread and the coffee or, or the soup you get at noon.

Interview with Joe Boin, Lincoln, Nebraska, January 19th, 1996, Reel 2. Joe, you mentioned you were a member of the Maccabi group while you were a young boy. Was that strictly for sports, or was it also a Zionist group?

Oh, it was a Zionist organization, too, you know. Matter of fact we were told and uh- ask if when there was still time to leave Germany and go illegal to Palestine. But unfortunately, or fortunately, I don't know, I could just not leave my parents, you know, and that's what happened to my wife's brothers, too. So I said, if they have to go through it, I will go through it, too. We do it together. Otherwise, I could have left, you know. If I would have made it, that's a different story.

But the membership was kind of inclined toward immigration, too?

Sure. Absolutely.

What is now Israel?

Yes, sir, yes it was.

Now, going back to Sachsenhausen, was your food distributed differently each day, or were you fed at a specific time?

No, we, we, like I told you, we were people which had to go to work and walk outside. We had to go to, like a canteen, it was a big table, you know. And there was one Jewish people. One gave you the bread, one gave you the coffee, or whatever necessary. That's, and we had to take it with us. We couldn't sit there and eat it. The only time we could sit and eat it was in the evening when we came back. So that's all we got. And then, of course, there was an interesting incident. When we came up one evening, some of the Catholic priests came to us and said, we are not hungry. We didn't have to go and work hard. And they gave us their ration of bread, or whatever they had left. And I thought that was very, very nice. But the majority of people, you know, you had to guard it with your life, the food. Because, you know, young people are hungry. You know, they want to eat.

Were the Catholic priests treated any differently than you are?

No, they were not different. They got beaten the same way we are. Maybe not in, how do you say that, so harsh, but they were beaten too as they had, when some of those people were orderly [elderly] men. And, matter of fact, when I, when we talked, sometimes at night, there was a rabbi who, I think, I don't know how he got to Berlin, but he was from Warsaw. And he said, I told him, if there's any chance I can get out of here. "I tell you, I'm going to kill every German there is." And he looked at me in the eye and he said, "How can you say that? If you do this, you put yourself in the same category like they are." And then I become starting thinking, you know, maybe you saw it. So, and then I found out later on that there were some good Germans too. So, maybe you have to understand the background, why this all happened. The Germany was in a big depression and people wanted to work and make money and put bread on the table for their children. And that's what Hitler did. He said, if you elect me, I will make sure that you get food on the table and make money. And that's how it happens. Of course, many people didn't know what's going to come afterwards. And he was very clever enough to organize the political police like the SS, which started spying on everybody and knew exactly where there was trouble in the making. You know. That's how he organized it. Many people found out it was too late. They couldn't do anything about it. Absolutely. We had, in the first beginning when I was there, we had regular army guards. Which were also not - not easy with us, but not as bad as when they put SS people in.

Is this in Sachsenhausen?

In Sachsenhausen, yeah. We had 17, 18-year-old boys and some of them came from Ukraine and Hungary. They were the worst people I ever saw. They gave them some alcohol to drink and then they came just out and, you know, whoever was in the way they hit him over the head or, things. And that's when I got my first slap on my hip, saying, God, it's, you know, like I said, it didn't do me much harm. Otherwise, I wouldn't be sitting here today.

Is this a time when you were disciplined?

Yeah. Yeah, discipline for what? I don't know.

You were given just one swat?

Yeah, one swat. Maybe he was, because he went for me to somebody else, so he didn't.

How big, how many people were in the barracks that you were in?

I was in there while the barracks were very small. I think there were about 120, 130 people. I'd never counted them.

What were the bathroom facilities like?

You don't want to ask that. The bathroom, we said we had to go outside, like an outhouse. We had to go. We don't have any bathrooms in Sachsenhausen.

How about for washing, what facilities?

Washing, we had, you know, the Army had, you know, long sinks, and their water came in. And we could wash, most of the time we didn't have soap. And if they felt like it, they let the first guy go, and the second guy, they turned off the water, and that's it. Couldn't do any washing anyhow. I suppose that many of the guards maybe complained, because after so many days of not being able to cleanse yourself, it smells pretty bad. So then they opened again and let us clean, and then, but that was not fun. Absolutely not.

Were you assigned to a regular job while you were in Sachsenhausen?

No, no. We were then shipped wherever we had to walk. If it's in a walking distance, sometimes you had to walk five, six kilometers in order to get to the place where we had to go. And I remember one time that we finished one job, and we had, I think they didn't know what to do with us. And then we walked out in the morning, and we came to an open place, and there was nobody there, and nothing there. I said, oh, there's something wrong here. And then two big trucks came and had gravel. You know, just put it on the floor, and we got buckets and a shovel. We had to put it in the buckets and carry it from here to there. And then when we finished this, we had to turn them back just to keep us busy. That was our daily routine, which really drains your mind, because you have nothing else on your mind than, how can I get out of here? What is the chances are of staying alive if this goes on? Then, of course, I didn't know what's going to be ahead of myself, but that's how the situation was. And I always tried to keep busy, and in the evening when I came, I was very tired, but I still exercised a little bit. My feet and my arms, you know. I did not want to be too weak that, you know, we had a lot of people which we walked out on the farm industry to shut them. So, that's how I was able to keep on going.

What kind of a mixture of people were in your barracks, various religions and so on? You mentioned priests.

Yeah, there were communist, gypsies, and political opponents of the Nazis, and that was most of the people that we had there, and like church members, Catholic, Protestants, there was no difference. Just opposed against the Nazis, they didn't do what they wanted them to do. So, it is considering what came later, it was really like a vacation for us.

Were there many Jews in your particular barrack?

Yeah, there were quite a few, but I don't know how many. You know, Sachsenhausen is a big place, you know, in this... We had many Jews there too, but like I said, there were mixes of communists and things. I heard later then they shipped most of the communists and the gypsies too also to the gas chambers, to Auschwitz, when that was built in I think in 1942.

Were there any Jehovah Witnesses in your camp that you knew of?

There might be, I did never, I have never Talk to somebody like this.

How about the homosexuals?

Oh yeah, homosexuals, we had quite a few.

Were they with the rest of the prisoners or were they separated?

Yeah, they were. No, they were at least in Sachsenhausen and they were the rest of the prisoners.They had... No, they had special... They could go to work with us, but they had to be separate in their sleep quarters. So, yeah, that's...

How long were you in Sachsenhausen?

I was in Sachsenhausen from 1939 to 1943, I think, 42 or 43. And then one night we were told that the next morning we had to... We are ready certain people and we're going to be shipped somewhere else. And...

While you were in Sachsenhausen, did you ever have a regular job or was it a various jobs?

No, no, I don't have a... Only outside, hard work, street work or buildings or repair or nothing. There were some people which have been sent, for instance, when the harvest ready send them to farmers, have out there, but I never had the chance to be there.

How many days a week did you work?

Seven days a week.

Seven days, there were no days out?

No, there was no holidays, no. We had no holidays, I didn't even know what day it was anymore. The Jewish holidays, the rabbi, of course, took care of that, but there was no way to, you know, to have Pesach or any other holiday, to Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah.

Over that period of time, did the food change significantly?

Oh, yeah, it went worse, from bad to worse, you know, unless sometimes you got bread which was already molded, you know. But it's amazing, if you're hungry, you eat anything. And then I didn't get sick and many people did, I don't know.

Did you have any spell of sickness in Sachsenhausen?

No, no, I did not have any spell of sickness. A matter of fact, I didn't have a cold. I can't still understand it today, but... So, I don't know.

Were there any of the prisoners that you knew of that were sent off to the hospital-type facility?

There was no hospital-type facility in Sachsenhausen when I was there. I didn't know about it.

So, if a prisoner was sick...

Sick, then... Or they kept him in, you know, if he just had a flu, and the people say that he might recover in two or three days, they left him in the barracks, you know. But we didn't have a sick bay when I was there. No.

Was there a lot of death?

You bet you. A lot of deaths, a lot of deaths, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot.

Were you able to correspond at all with family during this period?

No, no I wouldn't even try, because we know the way they handled it. You could see there's no way. You would have to give it to the commandant,(okay?) And he would probably read it and then throw it away. So, there was no use to have done anything.

Did you have any knowledge at all of what might have happened to your sister?

No, we did not.

Your mother?

Absolutely not. I just was hoping and praying that nothing happened to them. I did not have any idea what... We didn't have any outside contact whatsoever.

Were you aware of other countries that were involved in the war at this time?

Oh yeah, we were aware that we knew that Hitler started the war in Poland, you know, and then later on and things. I might come back to this when I found out how soon the Western allies knew about this and didn't do nothing about it. But we knew a little bit, but not... You have to understand one thing. You are incarcerated for something you didn't do because you're Jewish. You had to work day after day. Hard work, and I mean hard work, and you didn't have the right nourishment. There is nothing you think of more than anything else, how to get out, but you don't care if there's something else in the other side. You didn't have the time to think. You know, you have to keep yourself mentally alert somehow because some people, most of the... Some of the people just became crazy, you know. They couldn't handle it anymore. And I didn't want that to happen to me, so...

You mentioned that you'd walk out of the concentration camp in a work detail to go to a job. When you did that, did you encounter any German civilians?

No, we didn't. It was outside. We did not encounter any civilians. They put us... That was a little field out there, and they didn't let us go on the street. They crossed fields where they started to dig out the sand and the glass and then prepare for the cement carriers to build the road. And we had to straighten out the cement and... And that was our job. We had no much chance of... And if there would be civilians around, they wouldn't dare to talk to us. I don't think from the far they might look at us, but they will not talk to us.

How were you treated by the guards when you were on these labor details?

Most of the time, considering, pretty good. But, you know, it depends on what mood the guard was. You know, like I said, if you looked a little bit different, you know, he might just come and hit you. Which he did. But I was trying to keep in the... I had two friends with me, and we had tried to do all just working and doing the things they wanted us to do. So most of the time, they left us alone.

When you were ready to leave Sachsenhausen, where did you go from there?

To Buchenwald.

To Buchenwald.

That was the first encounter with how worse can it get instead of better. We were transported in trucks first to... What's the name of that place? Freiburg, I think it was. And from there, we went... we had to, uhm to enter a cattle car, you know, on the railroad. And that probably was the first encounter with what we can expect. If you have six, seven hundred people in a cattle car, no way to even sit down and go to the bathroom. So you can imagine what that means. The smell and the odor and there we were in Freiburg. I think it was Freiburg. We are together women and children, you know, and just children screaming. That is something I will never forget. It is something which I have nightmare about.

Was there any reason that led them to transfer you from Sachsenhausen to Buchenwald?

No, I don't think so. And it just... There was one guard who I didn't say, he's a nice guy, but he's some... he had compassion for some of the people. And when you heard that we're going to get transported, he says, that's the best way to stay alive. You go from one place to another, but you had no say in it. Just luck, I suppose, I don't know.

And you say you were first loaded onto trucks from Sachsenhausen?

Yeah, yeah.

And you went to Freiburg?

Yeah, and from there we were loaded on the train.

What was the distance from Sachsenhausen to Freiburg?

I know we drove about 16 hours, I think.

Were you given any water or food during this period?

No, nothing. No, we got some water when we came there. And not really enough to sustain us. But then when we were put in the cattle cars and nothing here, we had to be two days on the train. With no food, no water, no nothing.

When you were driving in the trucks, were you able to observe any of the countryside of Germany?

Yeah, we did. Most of the time I tried to sleep, you know, to get strength back again, which is difficult. You know, I wasn't interested in this because I know that I was not strong enough to even try to escape without any outside help.

Were the trucks open trucks or were they closed?

No, they were closed, but in the back you had, you know, there's four guards were sitting there and the rest we were. We sat on the floor. No, there was, we didn't, I don't think anybody was interested in them.

Did any of the population that you knew of notice this convoy of trucks?

I'm sure they did, yeah, but, you know, some of them we came, I think it was Potsdam, when we came through Potsdam that some of the people, oh, Jews, Jews, you know, dirty Jews, kill them all and, you know.

Was this transport primarily Jews?

Yeah, that was all Jews, there was nobody else in there, no.

Getting back to Sachsenhausen, did they ever separate the priests before you left Sachsenhausen?

No, no, I have been with the same people the whole time that I was.

Until you left Sachsenhausen?

Yes, yes.

What happened to them then?

I don't know, Ihave no idea.

Now, how were you treated upon your arrival in Buchenwald?

Not very pleasant.

Did you find it as equal to or worse than Sachsenhausen?

Absolutely worse, much worse, because the first thing they did, they hit us the moment we walked to the gate, you know, Schweinehunde, if you - you better behave yourselves, but in the end, you know, anyhow, we will, you will be dead. So that's a good and frank reception, so, many screamed, screamed, terrible. And the first thing I saw when we unloaded the uh, the umm ... cattle cars, you know, many people just fell down, they were dead already. And then the most terrible thing, I think, for me, again, was when the women and children, you know, someone had little babies like this in their hand, and they came outside, and the SS came, and just took the children apart and threw them on a pile, you know, like garbage, you know. And we were told later, they used it as target practice.

Were you separated then, men and women?

Oh, yeah.

This was in Buchenwald?

Yes, it was men and women. I think most of the women were mostly killed, right away. You know, they had, then I don't think they had the gas camps, or they had big sheds, which they could seal hermetically, which they had the women go in there, take your clothes off, that's, you're going to get cleaned up. And then they had trucks on each side with a hose on the exhaust, which, when this was closed, you just started the motor, and in five minutes, you had a little screaming, and then, you know, all was quiet.

At this time then, were you placed in, assigned to a barrack?

Yes, I was, that barrack was a different story. We had, I was in the bunker with seven people, and some of them half dead already, you know, and they told us, I don't know how we can ever, or how we were able to escape ever from this misery. It was very depressing. And we had a younger, I don't know, he came from, somewhere from Russia. He was, he was 14 years old, I think. And he always said, he could, there I was called Haim then, in the camps. He said to me, Haim, you know, it looks terrible, but you know what? We all came out. We all will come out. Three days later he was dead. They took him to the gas camps.

In Buchenwald, was it a labor camp?

No, Buchenwald was a concentration camp. And the funny thing there, they asked us to have a roll call, and they asked if there's any specialists in any, like a mechanic or electrician or something. What can happen? I go forward, because maybe I have a chance, you know, to do, and then the others put in the barracks, and I said, I'm a shoemaker. I haven't got an idea, the faintest idea how to make a shoe, you know. And so they ordered me to go. They had this big store there. A shoe store. There was three Polish people and one Russian guy who is, was fantastic, who made shoes for the officers, like they never saw. And I said, listen, I don't know anything about shoes. Said, don't worry about it. You just, I will show you how to cut the sole and nail it on, and all you have to do, I had the machine there. You can, you know, made it so that, that's what I did. So I spent there quite a while. And the interesting thing is that also the officers which came in were not very polite, but they saw the job this guy did. You know, they respected him some. But when he was gone, the guards, for jealousy, or I don't know, that's the way they have to do it, they just came and beat him up, you know. The food there, I had one potato in a week. The bread was one loaf of bread for a week. Coffee, and that was it. I had no way to get some, but the guy who made the shoes for the officers, somehow somebody slipped him some sausage or some things, and then we had to, of course, hide it and make sure that nobody sees it, you know. And we ate a little bit of sausage or a little butter on the bread, you know. I think that's what kept us keep on going, you know. Til that stopped, too, so.

Were you assigned to this job shortly after you arrived?

Mm-hmm. The next two days later, yeah. But we had to go again through all this ... undress and shower, like powder they put on us, you know, which was terrible. And then get new stuff and, you know, til we were arranged and sent to the barraks, you know. We had, two days later, I was ordered to go and work in this shoe store.

Did you keep the same number you had from Sachsenhausen?

Oh, yeah. You keep the same number.

Same number

The sheets are there, and there's everything. Because you didn't know my name. You just number so-and-so, number this-and-this, and that's, they keep this to the end. You know, unless if you happen to be in Auschwitz, or that's, a lot of it was destroyed. But yet, the Yad Vashem in Yerushalayim has saved quite a bit. Matter of fact, all the numbers for my names of my wives' parents, and sisters, and brothers are all there. They have it recorded. Yeah.

Were you living at the same time you were working as a shoemaker? Were you living in the same barracks as original?

The same barracks, yeah.

You just left each morning to go to your job?

Each morning to go to the job and did whatever you had to do, you know.

What was the time of a normal work day?

Well, like here, you had to get up and you had to stand in line four, five o'clock in the morning. The roll call took about an hour, sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more. And then you had to go, so you get, you know, you get your rations and you go to work. And we had to stay there. At lunch, we had 15 minutes lunch. But the only problem was, there was nothing to eat. So, we had 15 minutes lunch and we came home. Sometimes at six, sometimes at seven in the evening. We did not have to be in roll call in the evenings. The major who was in charge of it said, I rather want him here and do the job and get as much done as he can than standing out there and doing nothing. So, we were somehow preferred customers or I don't know, preferred workers or whatever you call it.

When you came back at the end of the day.

Yeah.

And you had this, you didn't have roll call, but did you have access to cleaning facilities?

Well, there we had better cleaning facilities than the Sachsenhausen. We had the same arrangement, but the water was not turned off. And once in a while, they gave us a piece of soap.

Joachim Boin reel three.

Joe you mentioned that the food in Buchenwald was not as good as it was in Sachsenhausen. Is that correct?

It's not only that its not as good its that we had less, you know, if you have one loaf of bread it was a two pound loaf, but for one week for a person who-who works 10-12 hours a day sometimes longer it's pretty difficult to sustain your heath, so.

Was there a lot of thievery going on of food?

Well, yeah, we had unfortunately, I mean. I don't think there are Jewish people different than anybody else, you know, that We had people that stole. You know. Try to steal from the other guy. They were hungry. So That's unfortunate but that happens and all.

In all, how long did you spend in Buchenwald?

I spent in Buchenwald from 19...40...to 1943 I think Somewhere on there. Yeah, no What I'm talking about I was in Sachsenhausen from there. I went to Todt and then I went to Buchenwald Fourty ... End of 42 and then I spent in Buchenwald til the middle of Ummm ... No til the end of 93. Yeah.

You mean 43?

43 yeah.

You mentioned that you were doing labor for the Todt organization?

Yes, this is again the. . . this were a group of. . . Todt you probably heard about it. It was an organization which took prisoners to build roads, build bunkers, you know a bunker where you, for, for people which an air raid come and they could go in. That's what we had to do.

Were you with the Todt organization or were you living in the concentration camp while you worked for them?

No, while I was in the Todt organization I was not in the concentration camp I was in Lauterbach. Which is about, it's far away from Buchenwald, and it's about 200 kilometers from Sachsenhausen.

How were you selected to go to the Todt organization?

Just, somebody came and took me. You know, and not me only, I was, there's other people they took. I think they measured it by, by looking the person on how if you're capable to walk and to work and, you know, was still muscular and could do the job, I suppose. Otherwise I couldn't imagine that. Because an older person who has; I don't think he had the, the uhhm strength. You know, maybe they would not work one day or two days and then you would be dead. So.

When you were selected to go to the Todt organization

Yeah

What camp were you in at that time?

In Sachsenhausen still. Yeah, I was in Sachsenhausen, you see I mix that up. Sachsenhausen and then Buchenwald afterwards.

So, you went from Sachsenhausen to the Todt organization?

To the Todt Organization, yes

Then to Buchenwald.

And then to Buchenwald after. I am sorry about that.

That's all right. How long were you with the Todt organization?

I was almost two years with them.

And during that time, how were you housed?

How was I what?

How were you housed?

Oh, we had, you know, the tents which the army has. Tents, that's where we housed.

Were you under strong guard?

Oh, yes. Oh, yes, more than under strong guards yes, sir, and we - And we came there and had we had some contact with people in the town. I mean because we are not the only one who worked out there, an electrician and and other people, plumbing and all this which worked. But we were shadowed by the guards, you know, but still sometimes one of the the professional they are Germans, they try to sneak under something, you know, sometimes a cookie or little piece of bread. But you couldn't do much because we had to eat it right there because before we left the bunker they searched us if we had some food or anything, you know and or knives or something. So we had to do it while we're working, which was really an art to figure out for us to do because the guards are sitting around. Now the only thing is that sometimes the guard has to go to the bathroom or he took something to drink he went away. That's when we sneaked, you know, whatever we had, you know, whatever we had in our mouth. So.

Were you still wearing the same camp uniforms?

Sure, yes. Just striped, you know, you have seen that.

How was your food during this period of time?

The same thing. We got one loaf of bread and we got some soup at noon but most of the time I think it was only potato peels or something, you know, so I really don't know what it was. But I didn't care what it was, you know, it was food and especially in winter. It was warm, not hot, but it was warm.

Were these tents heated in the winter time?

No, they weren't heated We they got us enough blankets, you know, but of course. Didn't do us much good but I have no idea how I stayed alive there I don't know.

Can you tell me about this Todt organization? What was it?

Uhm, I. Realy, that was an organization which was responsible for for building bunkers on the front lines, building bunkers in cities when they have air raids that people could go in. They were responsible for building roads to different locations. That's what they did. I'm, you know, that's what I think because I saw what they do.

Was it a military unit?

No, it was a private organ- or private- or, I mean it was Hitler but It was not a military organization. I don't think so. Also the guards were in military uniform and sometimes we had S.A. the brown shirts with the red - uhm... What do you call this...? This? [draws symbol on table with finger]

Swastika

Swastika, yeah. So, But here again, you know the majority of people, the guards, I think they were trained and they were told if they don't do their job and beat the Jews, because they're not worth a penny; they are all the evil in the world, you know, they're just a thing. Especially in the wintertime I think we had a little bit less problems because most of the officers didn't stay and just brought us in and checked us and then they left and so on. The wintertime most of the guards built a little fire and gathered around so it gave us a little bit more time to relax, you know, so [clears throat]

You've told me that you were injured.

That was in Buchenwald

That was in Buchenwald.

Yeah, that was in Buchenwald.

And what type of injury was it?

Well I went to the bathroom and when I came back one of the guards called me and I, I don't know I didn't hear it or I didn't want to hear it. Anyhow, he came after me and hit me first in the back and then he hit me here in the hip and it hurt terrible. I don't think - I didn't think that I'd be able to go on you know, and but I could walk. I could walk it was hurt terrible, but I don't think there has been broken. Later they found out it was cracked. So and, and that was a terrible situation for me because the next morning I could not go to work simple as that and they had the officer who was in charge, he came in and said "what's the matter with me?" And I told him I went to the bathroom and I must have overheard his calling me and he hit me with things in my back and I almost can't walk. I can walk but I'm not be able to, you know, do the hard work I usually do. So for one reason or another he said "Why don't you rest til tomorrow and we'll see what happened", you know. I don't think he would have left me much longer, but somehow I'm, you know, I still had pain when I went to work and then I was lucky the two guys which worked with me in the things did most of the work and I am rested most of the time so that helps me to sustain life I suppose.

And what type of injury was it?

Did he ever get you know what a rifle is?

Yes.

and the end of the rifle he hit me here and hard. So I had strong bones and all that but I you know, I thought my my hip is gone you know that such in pain I was and then I - I was able to walk back to - to the tents and just lay down and Said alright you better go out and I don't know what's going to happen to me because I will not be able to go To work tomorrow morning. There's no way. I can't stand the pain. There was no way you could get medication. Absolutely. There's no pain pills or something you could take. So that's what happened I was lucky to stay another day and then I went out and rested as much as they let me on the job you know hiding

Did you have a great deal of trouble with that hip following that?

Oh my gosh. Since then I did have terrible trouble. It didn't get better, you know especially I don't think I would have survived Buchenwald if I would stayed there But I think in 1944 I left Buchenwald to, they sent me to, to Hindenburg to the stone quarries where we had to work in the stone quarries I didn't have to carry much. All I had to do is you got the sledgehammer, you know, there was big rocks you had to hit and so I was not much I could put my strain on my left hip. So but it still hurts, of course, you know, I was absolutely Sometimes I bit my tongue that I don't have to scream, you know, but um, Somehow I made it. I don't know I just you know if you If it goes through your mind sometimes and if you - you dream about it at night you don't believe that what happened to the Jewish people ever happened without the war doing nothing about it

How long were you in Hindenburg?

Til the end. I was in Hindenburg from 1944 to November, December of 44 when the Russians bombarded the camp we were in there was no no camp there was some Barracks left over for military things and where they put us and you know, we were only there I think 500 people, you know prisoners Jewish prisoners And then when we we had 10 people which just said that's enough there's a chance to go and the reason we did that is that close by was a big forest and in Germany I don't know if you know the forest they go for miles and miles and miles, you know And I said if you have a chance, that's our chance and knowing that I considered If the Russians are so close they can't be take too much longer on you know, you felt that your your body has been taken to the maximum you can't give anymore so and rather than just waiting til somebody comes and stabs a knife in your back or things at least a little power you have you should try if the opportunity turns up to save yourself, you know and others so that's what we did. Save yourself, you know and others so that's what we did.

You escape from this facility?

Yeah.

Into the forest?

Into the forest and we the first The first night I think we walked about I don't know Seems to be 100 miles, but of course it's not and We were trying to get in a in a place where it is very Thick, you know trees and then we went through it there and We were standing there and it was January January 45 And it was bitter bitter cold there. That's on the east. That's on the border with Poland. and we had tried there and then of course squirrels and rabbits were running around there, you know, and somehow we were able to catch them and that's what we did most of them we ate them raw because we was afraid to make a fire that people came and the more we went deeper at first I thought, you know, because they had dogs In this camp, you know, if they chased the dogs after on the run, maybe they were killed or something. They never came and so we went from I think we went the next day about 15 miles or so and then we came on a little opening and we saw a farm downstairs. Now many three of us said why don't we go down and see, you know? Maybe this guy is a friendly guy and he probably knows that the war will be over and takes a pain to him and maybe he will let us live there or stay there. I said well I don't think we should take the chance because if he is a Nazi, you know, then we came out for nothing so one of the guys said, you know, why don't we do this? I will go and he was still in pretty good shape He says why don't do this I go at night and try to figure out maybe I can get some food and When he walked there and he had some What do you call it? Is they stored some potatoes and and carrots and all that so he went in there and Just when he went to walk out somebody knocked Him on on the shoulder and says where do you think you're going? And he looked around there was the trauma And so he had no choice he says we are political personnel. We are Jewish and we just want to have something to eat. As I put this away He took him in the house and his wife made him a cup of tea and he brought here He got a big can of milk and tea and some food bread and butter He said the way you were going over the years, you better be careful what you eat so And he had to carry it out to the wall. I said I would like to keep you in In my farm, but you still have from time to time uh patrols coming by And they asked so many questions and they and they and they had small children See they were afraid if you go and stay there that By mistake the children would tell them that there are some strangers here. By mistake the children would tell them that there are some strangers here. See no, it's better this way They're sleeping now. They don't even know you were here. So Keep down there and I will try and matter of fact, he gave us some clothes and uh blankets So that's that helped us So we just

how long were you in this forest?

We were a long time there. We went I think I told you May, but I think it was on April 24th When the first Russian soldiers came into this thing and we were scared, you know we we kept our our Clothes from the camp because the thing we were hoping that if somebody comes that they at least know where we know and we Yellow star so I ripped my yellow star when I told the others to put it on the on the civilian clothes Because that might help us, you know, and it did we had I don't know if I told you this but I had much luck and we had very much luck because when the Russians came they Big bottles of vodka and and you know what speck is Um, what do you call it? Um, what do you call it? Um bacon but uncooked You know and they put it on the table there and and And there was a Russian Major and I remember his name til today. His name was Major Kosunovsky and he said no said, why, why are you doing this? He spoke Yiddish And he said, you know what's going to happen if you take one bite you'll be dead by tomorrow And then I started thinking. Yeah, of course so that's The thing we were kept alive And I spent in the hospital there, uh months and then Six four weeks and then uh, he helped me go to the Um What do you call it? West sector You know, he he said it's not good if you stay here, you know that you already have to Stay here. So he helped me go over to out and they said

and then Were you treated in the hospital for the leg at that time or was it?

No, no, they just took an x-ray and found out that it is split what do you call it? Not really broken, but it's a,

Fracture.

Yeah, fracture. No, not a fracture. It's a split. You know, it's not broken apart altogether. It's just a little bit And still hurted a bit and the guys told me that The best thing would probably to do To um put you in the cast and and see if it heals if it doesn't heal we can operate on it and put maybe a board a nail towards, you know in order to keep it together and hold it. See I don't want to do anything right now I want to go to the other side. I want to see if my some of my family is there, you know, so I have um I had um They give me some medicine some pain medicine and we went And then I went from from there to what's the name of this town? So many little towns there Frankfurt am Main That's where the Americans were and then I went there. Then I went there. That was a Jewish organization had quite a few years and things and they opened their things and done First of all when I came in there, you see I need some help to go Well, he said How do we know you're Jewish? Well, I don't know. What do you want me to do? Did you get Bar Mitzvahed? I say yes. Why don't you say the Bracha. So so I said him I said, okay, that's all right Well, I understand you know, there might have been other people I didn't look Jewish you know,

So, was this an American officer that asked you?

No, they were Israelis.

Israelis?

Yeah, they helped in order to, um, try to get as many survivors from the Holocaust together, you know. I got food there and I got treated like a king, you know, but I don't know, say I said, just help me to go to Amsterdam. He said "What do you want to do there?" You see and then I explained to him if everybody came out from my family we're going to meet there because my mother had a brother there and we were hoping that he lives, which of course didn't exist. He was taken, you know. Hitler took the people from Amsterdam, and um, killed him too, you know about all the people, and so. But they helped me to go there and we came I came to Amsterdam and I got arrested by the police because I didn't have any papers nothing. So I explained the situation to them and I told them that what happened to me and my uncle was living here and we're trying to find out If he lives he lives and I was hoping I'm going to find my parents and my sisters here. And he said, "First off, the majority of the Jewish would have been living in Amsterdam especially when they were older people have been all taken to Auschwitz and they're not in system but for you uh to stay in Holland you don't have to worry about because Hitler is not there anymore you go back to Germany." But I said is there any way I can, you know, at least find out if my parents are coming or not? And so they put me in a displaced person camp in Eindhoven and well, say first my sisters came and then my mother, she was in a terrible shape, and then my dad.

Where had your sister and your mother been?

My, I liked, like I told you my - my mother was close to Sachenhausen and this was a a camp where they did the laundry for the officers not for the regular soldiers and sewing and that's where they she has been and my sister worked in the ammunition factory. You know, which was not very far from Sachsenhausen. I don't remember all these little towns anymore. um I think my sister was in Wannsee if i'm not mistaken. And that's where they kept all the time. I don't know how. I don't know. I was not the only one where I found out several of them, but the majority of people did come out alone. You know, there's many people which, like my wife, she lost her first husband, her father and mother, one sister, and two brothers. So how do you explain that? How do you explain that? I'm here and my parents are here and my sisters are here. And the next to me the person has nobody left. It's hard to understand but that's happened. You know? We found quite a few people in Israel, which they're lucky enough to to escape and stay alive. Not in the same camp but in different camps and came out alive.

When you were in Eindhoven, was that a dp camp?

Yeah, that was a displaced persons camp.

Was it a large camp?

Oh Pretty large. No, it was not a large camp. It was a matter of fact. It was a sport hall of a gymnasium. That was um, you know how where you play basketball and all kinds of a - little larger maybe you know and all they had stow , that's all. put in the corners and they give you some pillows and blankets, that's all. We didn't really care. Because, We were used to conditions worse than that and we knew that we don't have to be afraid to call up to work and -and maybe get killed. so. And they fed us, you know, they gave us breakfast. They gave us I didn't like the food but that's besides the point, in luncheon and matter of fact, we got some I think we got six gulden a week. It's not much but you could you know, if you and we were free to go, on the street. We had to be back at a certain time You know, they didn't want us to get lost or so, but You know, there was none no one standing behind us. You know, and you have to be afraid somebody's going to hit you over the head or or even worse.

When you were there had your sister and your mother already arrived in Eindhoven?

No. No, no, I was the first one there.

And how long were you there until you -

I think it was taking two weeks til they came. At first my mother came. All by herself.

Can you describe that reunion?

That's very difficult to describe I don't know I think. My mother and I we cried for I don't know how long because we didn't know then. That we thought we had the only ones who survived this whole thing. You know. Yeah, there was not very much much to see and she was in very bad shape. First of all, not having the right food. Also, they got a little bit better food than we did but i'm sorry and but worrying about the children and the husband. You know, I can imagine what's in the mind of a mother is, so, yeah, we, why we carried out crying for a long, long time.

How long after that did your sister arrive?

My sister arrived about four days later and my dad the next day. Yeah.

At this time your sister nor your father knew nothing about the rest of the family?

At this time your sister nor your father knew nothing about the rest of the family? No, they did not. matter of fact my father went back to berlin because he knew that my little sister was there somewhere if she's still alive and he found her and he came with my little sister which was grown up already. Aand so that was tremendous.

So you found your father?

My mother my two sisters, yes. And my wife, she spent three years in Theresienstadt, and worked in Laundry was in charge of the laundry and her first husband was beaten to death in Theresienstadt and her brother could have gone to Palestine illegal, but he decided not to, he didn't want to leave the parents. He and his father went to Birkenau, and her parents went with the last transport which left Theresienstadt to Auschwitz and of course nobody came out alive. That was uh, and um, she were there with some friends, uh you might have heard about uh Spear is his name he was a very Um a famous painter in Holland, I think Joe Spear and his brother and they got acquainted in the camp and when she found under the camp that her family's there and he said why do you want to go to Vienna? Because you have nobody there.Why don't you come with to Holland we will take care of you? And to start a new life. She her, his wife went to school with - What's the name of the queen? I forgot. You know then Princess there. I don't know who she is. And says we will arrange everything there. So they brought her to Holland and but the thing is that it didn't work out its way, you know, so they put her in the displaced persons camp and it was interestingly enough, you know yhe was very depressed, of course sitting alone in her corner and um my sister went over to her and says would you like to have a cup of coffee and sorry about that.

Joe, you were saying that you met your future wife also in Einhoven.

Mm-hmm.

And she was depressed and your sister had gone over to meet her,

Right. Right. She asked her if she wants a cup of coffee, and she said yes. So she came over, and we had coffee together. And I, she was fascinating women, and she was very intelligent. And I said, oh, my God. And she was 14 years younge- older than I am. So I said, oh, my gosh. But this is something I would like to have to live the rest of my life. But, you know, I don't know. I was not as strong anymore, and I was shy, so. And we, uh they had, what was it, pizza came. And some of the soldiers from the Jewish Brigade, which were incorporated in the English Army, came over and said, there's some family who would like to invite you to come to have pizza with them. So I said, can we take this lady? She's Jewish, too. Oh, yeah, of course. So we went all day on. We got talking, and we found they have some common interests. So we got to know each other pretty good. We got to know each other so good that I got married after two weeks. Rabbi married us in the forest. It was so wonderful. Yeah. Then, of course, another hardship started. This Jewish Brigade soldiers told us that, where are we going to go from here? There's nothing left in Germany. And I don't think you're going to feel home in Holland. So I said to him, what do you suggest ? He says, well, there's a place that's called Palestine now, and they need very urgent young Jewish people. So I said, how are we going to get there? He said, that's the problem, because the Englishman that is there, and I think they had 1,000 visas for immigrants in the months. You know how many people came out of the camp. They didn't know where to go. So I said, what are we going to do? He says, well, there's one. It's not going to be an easy way, but we can try to smuggle you in illegal. My wife started uh-oh. You know, she was afraid. But he said, what do we have to lose? So we went from there. They took us by truck to, I think it was called Madrac,1 a little bit outside of Marseille.

In France?

In France, yeah. And there we spent about two, three weeks, and my wife cooked for the people there. There was an old building, I think it was a farmhouse or something, right in the Mediterranean. It was beautiful. And she cooked for the people there, and they brought different people from different places to gather together there.

Were there a lot of people there at that time?

I think we had about probably 1,000 or 1,200 people there. All waiting to be. And when they were ready to go, they went to... They took us to Marseille. And there was the boat, what is called Birria.

I'd like to interrupt just one thing, Joe, and we'll get back to this. But I'm wondering, did you or any of your family members return to Berlin after the war?

No. Nobody returned to Berlin.

Did your wife . . .

My parents stayed in Holland. They were allowed to stay there. My little sister married one of the Jewish soldiers in Holland. And my older sister said, "I'm not going to stay here. I'm going to go wherever you go." We go, and so my two sisters and my wife and myself, we went. Because my younger sister's husband Wilmet, he was in the army, and he could, of course, not take her with him. So he went a separate way and said that they're going to meet in Israel, and then, you know, we go from there.

Did your wife ever return to Vienna

Yeah, once

during this period?

We went to Vienna in 1960, I think.

Oh, but she didn't return right after the war?

No, no, no, no.

All right, now I'll let you go back to...

No, no, no, no, no, we didn't return.

I'll let you return to the Mediterranean.

We were, yeah, about 1,200 people. And then we were transported to Marseille, where there was a nice big boat. It's called the Birria. As a matter of fact, this was the last boat entered Haifa. And so, and they asked us, you know, my wife cooked for the people there. If she would be able to cook on the ship. It was about 2,000 people there. She says, why not? And I said, I go Haifa, you know. So we had a job there. We had to cook. We didn't... I said, I sleep in the kitchen on the floor, you know. The only problem we had was how much rice do you need in order to feed 2,000 people. So I don't know. I said, you know what? Why don't we take a second, put it in, and see what happens. So I went and worked out okay. So...

Did you have enough rice?

Yeah, probably for 10,000 people now, not 1,000. So, and then we were on the ship for three days, and then all of a sudden the ship stopped. And Betsalel, who was the leader of this group, said, you will have to change ships. It's in the middle of the ocean.

Why are you going to do that?

Well, he said, the boat you're on right now is one of the best boats we could buy for the money. And we would like to go back and get another lot. And they hired a Turkish coal boat, which, you know, they had to pay and kept quite a bit of money in order to do that. So 2,000 people of half the size the boat we were in was going to be a problem. But, you know, what do you do? If you have a chance to be free, and not only free in your own country, I think what else can you are? Well, you go through a little bit more of hardship, you know. Then, you know, it was quite a ways there. The sea was not too rough, it was not quiet either.So we had to put nets like nets over there, and we had to crawl on there. The boat was pretty, I was afraid, you know, it's a deep place. Don't be afraid. I go first and you jump, and I pick you up. And then, well, everything worked, worked out fine. But we got all loaded on the boat, and we had went on our way. The food was not very good, because nobody was really hungry, because it was so crowded. I didn't ever find a place. I went down to the boiler room, and I was sleeping next to the boiler, because there was nobody there. So I could stand the heat, so I went down there. And then, well, I think we were another day on sea when it was night, and it was very foggy. And we heard sirens, and we heard, I said, what is that? Is that Haifa? I said, no. That's probably the English, you know. They had boats and so on at us. And then they found us, and they stopped the ship and said, where are we going? As a matter of fact, this was a little bit farther than Cyprus. We didn't know it then. And so the captain says, we have a lot of women and children up here who are desperately of need of water. Would you be able to help us with water? There was a silence for about 15 minutes, and then they called us back. I'm sorry we are not able to help you, but we will escort you to the port of Haifa. We didn't know we were so close, you know. So that's what they did. When we came to-

How long did it take you to go from that point where you were stopped to Haifa?

About six hours, maybe longer, a little bit, but not very long. We came on in the morning, you know. So there, instead of being able to go on the Holy Land, you know, now there was a ship. It's called Rathenau, Walter Rathenau or something, I think, a German ship, which he captured or whatever. We would put a big boat, you know. We were unloaded there. And there we had to stay for a couple of months, I think, we stayed there.

On the ship?

On the ship. But, you know, here again, we were prisoners, but not the way we are in Germany. We had a Jewish Sochnut. How do you say that? Jewish organization, women's organization, and came both clothes and food, you know. There was no things. We could not go off the ship, except if we went to swim in the water, and several people did at night and disappeared. They had help from outside, so. But we had good food, and we had clothes. And so we stayed there, my wife and my two sisters

From there, we had to go to another DP camp, which is called Atleet. It's very close to Haifa. And put in another camp. And I came later. And the men and women, of course, separated til our, what do you call this, til the time came that we are allowed to, you know, get the visa, or whatever you call it. And then we were finally free, and we were taken to Kwasava, which is a city not very far from Natanya. And well, it was interesting for us to see beautiful new fourplexes in the middle of an orange trees and bananas. But there was no doors, no windows, nothing. All we had is a bed, you know. So I said, I don't care what it is. I'm, you know, at least now I don't have to worry about the sink, you know. So we went in there. It was not easy either because we had to find a job because in order to make living, you know. And so when jobs are hard to find, the Jewish agency tried to do the best to find jobs for us. And I said, I don't want any money. I want to go to work, and I want to make money myself. So I had a job as a night watchman for a company. It's called Soleil Bonnet. That's a building company. And I had, it was a pretty good job, you know. But then when this happened, the underground bombed the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. The English, some English soldiers came as a jeep and told me to get in and drove me somewhere. I just saw the sign that we're crossing the Palestine border into Arab country, you know. I said, uh oh, that's not going to be good. I didn't speak Hebrew so good. And I certainly didn't speak Arabic. So what am I going to do? And I don't even know where I am. But somehow they left me in the middle of nowhere. And I- it was a full moon. And I watched the moon where the moon is. So I tried to navigate back to the place I came. Came from. So. Took me right about four and a half hours, I think, to get back where the place I was. And they were wondering what happened to him. So I told them what happened. So and then I went home. My wife never could out because she had breakfast with her. And I was not able to eat because I was falling off my feet. I was tired, you know. So then the job was over and we had to, I said, maybe I go. Somebody told me, this is the time where they take the nuts, what do you call them, peanuts. And that's the worst thing to do, you know. The peanuts don't grow on trees. They grow on bushes. And it was not too bad to do. But we had these little flies. They came into the ear and their nose. And I saw people put something over their head. And what did they do? They had a piece of cloth, dipped it in kerosene, wring it out and put it here. It was fine. No fly bothered you. But, you know, a little while later you got infected head and all this. I said, no, I don't do that.

So now my wife talked to some people there and says, she is a seemstress. You know, she can make... So they gave us an old sewing machine. And what they did, and she taught me, they gave her to make khaki pants, you know, shorts. And she taught them how to do it. So we made khaki pants. And she made the holes for the knobs. And I sewed the khaki pants, you know. It taught me well, but I had some- something to do with it. So, and then from, and my daughter was born there, in Ramat Gan. And that's, of course, the big thing for us, of course. We didn't have much, but at least we were free people, you know. We had, I think, the only thing, yes, my daughter was the first one. And then in the Shikun, one after another got babies, and nobody knew how to diaper them. So I had to go from one house to another to diaper all the babies. I didn't mind, you know. That's something you enjoy, you know. You have to help people. But then a friend of mine told me, maybe it's better you come to Jerusalem Jerusalem. There's maybe a better chance to get a job. And so I went to Jerusalem. Then, of course, I joined the Tzvargana in 1947. And my job was driving a meshurain. It's an armored car. You probably have seen it, some of them. Then when the English left, they sold the headquarters to the Jews and to the Arabs, also, who was first then when the war started.

Were there a lot of problems in Israel at that time?

Oh Yeah. Well, a lot of problems, but we didn't mind, you know. We learned to, you don't know what it means for a person to be in a prison, was a prison, and have problems where you'd be able to try to solve them yourself without somebody pushing you somewhere or things. We didn't need much to live. My wife was also very good cook. She did everything, you know. We didn't have to suffer and make things. But so, you know, in the end, we were sure that, you know, we made the right decision and we came here. Everything else will come. And later on, it came. Now, my first encounter with the Arabs was when you don't know, you know where the Hadassah is and what do you call this mount?

Scopus.

Scopus, right. So, in between Jerusalem and Mount Scopus were Arabs. So, we had to, we took doctors and nurses and some patients back and forth. Of course, there's a lot of people got killed, too, because they put mines in there. My wife was pregnant, with our second child, and the doctor said she should go to the Hadassah because of her age. I don't know what. And I didn't really want her to go there, you know, because I know that's interesting. But I said, well, if you have to go, I will take you. You know so, I took her up there and she stayed there two weeks and nothing happened. So, the next time the people came back from there and told me, your wife is going to be back tomorrow. And so, I said, my God, I can't do it because I didn't have anybody to babysit my daughter, you know. So, we went and everything went fine and she came back. So, and then I got wounded. I got shot in the stomach, which came from this side and hit my hip and destroyed, you know, the, what do you call this?

Socket.

The Socket of the things. And then when I, I had problem not being able to walk at all. And the only way the professor from Canada operated on me, and, he says, the only way you can start walking again, probably we'll have to put a nail in there, you know. And so, but then your, your hip will be stiff. And I couldn't get into my head that, you know, that's impossible. And somehow, another doctor came and said, well, wait a minute. In two days, a professor from Portland is coming, a specialist in orthopedics. Maybe we'll get him in and see what he said. So, I went down, he says, no, you don't have to have a, nail in there, I can do it so that you'll be able to walk. But you have to make the decision now because I have to operate tomorrow. So, I, I talked with my wife and she said, well, it's up to you. Really, that's your life. You know, you have to do whatever you feel like it. So, I said, okay, I'm going to do it. And I went in Haifa. He did it in Haifa. He operated on it. And the problem I had, you know, I came out with the cast from here to both legs. That was not very funny, but that's the way it is. And it worked. So, I had, my foot was shorter, three inches, but I didn't care. I didn't have to have a stiff leg. And it took me about three months to get, you know, back in shape and build up the muscles.

Were you wounded in the war of independence?

Um,hum. Yeah. Yes, sir. I got shot in the stomach. First, I had, I had the honor to save the American vice consular, his daughter. He drove down King George. You know Jerusalem? You know where the windmill is? There was, that was the, that's where we were and across the street were the Arabs. And he somehow drove there and they started shooting at him. And so the only way to get there was with an armored car on. I said, I will go. And I got him out. And I went back in the building and we had some papers to fill out. And the guy said, well, why don't you go home and rest because you're, you know, working three, four days, you know, without. So, okay, I'm gone. I came out of the door and somehow I turned to the left and something hit me in my stomach. I just fell down. That was it. And then they took me in Bikur Holim Hospital and the doctor said, this guy is dead. So the professor comes through and says, what are you talking about? He's still alive. So he operated on me. And then it was one of the interesting things. But from then on, our life turned around quite a bit. We haven't been rich people. We didn't want to be. We enjoyed our family and we visited my sisters. Until we came to the United States of America. My daughter married an American student who was a student. And I think there was a, on Zion, a seminary for studies on the Holy Land. They came from the United States. She married him and my son got a scholarship in George School of Pennsylvania. And so they went. And so my wife said, I don't know. I don't know. My children aren't here. I want to go there. I want to go there. So I said, I will.

What year was that, Joe?

1966, October. But they are there. I don't know. It was October 1966 when we came to the States. But a professor from the Hebrew University who was from New Jersey came on a sabbatical there. And he told me, we took care of his kids. He told me, you know what? Why don't you come on a visitor's visa and I will take care of it. When you come here. And you stay with us and you take care of our children because his wife was also a professor. So we didn't know, you know. So we came on a visitor's visa. And of course, it didn't work out the way they wanted to, you know. I said, yeah, we can stay here for three months. And that's it. And then again, there was my son was staying with the family who sponsored him. And his -her son was a school colleague from Rockefeller's son. So he said, let me inquire and see what I can do. So he came back and said, the only way that you will be able to stay in the United States is to have a job like a domestic servant. He said, oh, my God. She said, what else do we have left? You know. So we do it. And we worked for Governor Rockefeller's daughter. Her surname was Mary. Mary Storwitsch. She was married to a guy of Storwitsch. She, I think, has the Philadelphia clothing stores and all that. And they had the kids. And I became a butler and my wife a cook. So we had to stay there. I stayed there for six months because after I got my blue card, I couldn't stand it anymore because she was a really mean person. You know what? She used people. And my wife stayed one year, one more. No, she stayed a year there until we moved out and moved to White Plains. And I was lucky there because my hope of your plans and I got a job up in the Boons Botanical Garden, I was the assistant curator, which was very good. So, yeah, that was life. And then, of course, my daughter lives in St. Paul, Minnesota. We were living in White Plains, Minnesota - in White Plains, New York. And she said, why don't you come down? Oh, no. I had to quit the job because we had to, the flowers which came from South America have to be in chemical treated for sickness and I got sick. And the doctor said, no, if you want to live, you better get out of here.

So then my daughter said, why don't you come to Minnesota? You know, what are you going to do in Minnesota? I have no education. I don't have nothing. So I took a locksmith course and opened the store in Minnesota, St. Paul, Minnesota. After I was there a year, she left. See, I'm not going anywhere. You know, I'm just staying here. When we did pretty good, my wife was cutting keys and I bought an old upbeat telephone truck. If you remember the AT&T were green trucks, dark green trucks, and I bought that pretty cheap. And I went out on service calls and we made a living. So from there we went. The weather didn't agree with my wife very good. It was very cold in Minnesota. We went to Chicago. In Chicago, I had a store on 125 Washington Avenue, a little garage. And then my wife started getting sick and sicker and I said well... She said, why don't you sell the store and, you know, see what happened. We'll find something, you know. But, you know, sometimes I said, man, it's a good, going store. You know, why don't we keep it? And I got a partner who was a bad situation. And we went. I had to go to several clinics. with daughter - with my wife to also to the Mayo Clinic in Rochester. When I came back, there was nothing left. He stole everything I had.

That's when I came back to Lincoln, my daughter. And from here we went to Omaha and stayed in Omaha eight years. And I worked as president of the Society of Survivors. And then when she got worse, my daughter said, why don't you come to Lincoln because it was difficult for her to go from one place to Lincoln. And so we did. And then November 5th, she departed.

Just this past November, Joe?

Um, hum. Yeah. Yeah, but she was, we married 50 years.

There were 50 good years for you two, weren't they?

? Yes, yes. In spite of everything? Oh, there's no question about it. But, you know, it hurts. Oh, definitely. It's not enough time. It's not enough years. And she had so much to give. Yep.

Joe, when you look back upon those years, what kind of a message would you like to leave?

I go to schools and colleges and help for those who understand young people that hatred and to hate somebody is something which don't get you anywhere. You know, trying to understand and respect each person and to try to live together. Then you made a very different world. But also, you know, as I know, killing goes on today. Not much you can do.

Joe, I'd like to look at some of your family photographs. Can you identify this photograph for me?

Certainly. This is my dad, Arthur Boin, and this is my mother, Bianca Boin. I think it's right after they got married.

And they - did they eventually settle in Israel?

Oh yeah, they came to Israel in 1953. Both lived in Netanya. My mother died in 1973 and my dad in 1995.

Joe, can you identify this photograph for me?

I certainly can. This is my lovely wife Lily. We were married 50 years. A wonderful woman.

Joe, can you tell me about this photograph?

Certainly can. This is my wife's parents also and Helene Engelman. That's pictures from Vienna as they were married.

Did they survive the war, Joe?

No, they did not. I never met them, so no, because they were killed in Auschwitz.

Joe, can you identify this photograph for me?

This is my wife's parents before they were shipped to the concentration camp. One brother Walter Engelman and the middle is her sister, Alice Engelman. Alice married a gentleman there and they were killed in Birkenau and Walter and his father were killed in Buchenwald. And the parents in Auschwitz.

Joe, who is this photograph?

This is my wife's younger brother Gustav and he was killed in Buchenwald with the other brother. He had a chance to go to Israel, illegal, but he didn't want to leave his parents, so he vanished in Buchenwald.

Joe, can you identify this photograph for me?

Certainly, this is my son Gustav, named after my wife's brother, his wife Susan, his son Daniel Aaron and his daughter Tamara. They live in New Jersey and unfortunately we have not much seen from him in a long time.

Joe, can you tell me about this photograph?

Yes, this is a photograph. It's three years ago when my grandson got married in Mead, Nebraska and in Meade, Kansas. His wife is Jennifer Bond and next to him is my daughter Heni and next to her is her husband Norman Bond and next to him is his daughter Nicole Bond. And on the front was my son-in-law's mother Hazel Bond and in the middle is my wife Lilly and on the side it's me, Joe.

Joe, can you tell me about this book?

I certainly can. This is my wife wrote the book. It's the 40 years of her life and the reason she did that is to let her children and grandchildren know what happened to her during the war and after until we got to Israel. It tells about how we met each other in Holland and how we got married and then illegal went to Palestine and when my children was Boin and that's about it. She has a little excerpt written afterwards but it's not in the book. Eventually it will maybe be but right now it's mostly written for her family and the family knows what happened to her.

And your wife Lily of 50 years passed away just this November of 1995?

November 5th, yeah, 1995.

Well, I'm sure she was a delightful, wonderful lady, Joe.

Oh, yes, she really was. She was loved by everybody.

Joe, I'd like to thank you for allowing us to come in and listen to your story.

Thanking you for doing the time and offer it so. But I think, like you said, it's very important that people know what happened 50 years ago since we won't be here very long, so at least you have some kind of collection which you can discuss with your children or grandchildren but you know what happened. I thank you very much and you too.

Thank you, Joe. Joe, in closing, to prove that life does go on and we continue living through our offspring, can you describe this photograph?

I certainly can. This is my great, great granddaughter, Hailey Bond. And when she was born, August 2nd, 1995, and we were fortunate to be here and my wife also was able to see her till the beginning of November when she went into her coma. So she had to see her. She was lucky to see her Grandaughter and enjoyed it tremendously. And I think that's wonderful that it happened this way.