Interview with John and Rita Stinner, Friends of Irving Shapiro

About how this will work or anything like that. Or

I think we're fine. And I did email you my release our release forms.

Yes, we got those. Thank you.

Alright, cool. Alright. So today is Wednesday, October 18th, 2023. We are conducting an interview over Zoom on Irving Shapiro. My name is Abigail Hanson. I'm a student intern for the Nebraska Stories of Humanity Project through the UCARE program and the Center for Digital Research in the Humanities. And then I'll have Dr. Beth Dotan introduce herself.

Right. Thank you. I'm the project investigator on this project with the Nebraska Stories of Humanity, and we're happy to be here today.

We'll have you guys introduce yourselves quickly.

My name is Rita Stinner, and I live in Gering, Nebraska and we lived three doors down from Irving Shapiro, neighbors.

Yeah, and I'm John Stinner, obviously related to Rita Stinner. I was a friend of Irving, you know his banker, and kind of an associate in in certain regards, so good friend of his.

I should mention that we moved from Lincoln to Gering in 1990. So Irving was already a senior, already retired. As if he was ever quite retired. He always was busy with something, but we did not know him in his younger years.

Alright. Thank you. When you did know him, were you aware that he was a Holocaust survivor when you were living near him?

Yeah, I will correct Rita on one regard is that he ran that railcar business on a full time basis. I think that they finally closed it around 2000. I believe it was about 10 years that he ran that. Fred Lockwood was his partner, Fred owned a public accounting firm. They were customers of my bank, or our bank in Gering, so got to know him from a business side of things I got to know him from a friendship side of things. He was somebody that as soon as you met him you liked him, it's just one of those personalities. Anyhow.

Irving had written a book, and he presented us with one copy of his book, when we moved there, and we were starting a friendship. And so we've, of course, both read it and I believe you have a copy of that book, but we became aware right away that he was a Holocaust survivor.

Yeah, I, I might be skipping around on your questions I didn't know if we were gonna take them in order or not, but the first time I met Irving was, I was with Jim Krantz and actually we were looking for investors to start Gering State Bank, which was a bank I started in 1988. And I met with Irving Irving, one evening, and was invited in and of course he was very gracious host. Talked to him about becoming an investor. And at that time somebody had burned a swastika in his front yard. And at that point he says, you know, I would not be a good bank investor or a board person in a bank and you can tell why if you just look out front. So at that, at that point he declined being an investor which, to this day I feel kind of bad about, but certainly at that at that point he made an impression that I am Jewish, and this community was somewhat hostile toward toward him in certain regards.

I subsequently found out that there was a guy named Butch Stanko who had a a meat packing business. And if you go back in the records Butch was actually was selling meat to schools. And Butch got in trouble with the law. And Butch always blamed the Jewish community for that. And so during this whole process of court battles, and- he formed a whole group of it was just anti-

Semitic

Semitic and actually I knew they when I first moved to town, there were some people pointed out where they used to meet in a house and have meetings about just just anti-Jewish stuff so, there was that element in Gering. Anyhow, that that was really what he was probably reflecting on the most.

As I got to know him then he showed me the tattoo on his arm, being a Holocaust victim. We talked a little bit it was more on a friendship basis than anything else and and actually a little bit of a business relationship. Mostly about bank deposits and and the potential to get loans, those types of things they never did borrow, because Irv was always against borrowing but he, you know, he went through his history of coming to Canada first. And then working, I think, in in a in a factory of some sort in Canada, and then having a sponsor, I think it was cousins that sponsored him to come to Alliance. And once he came to Alliance, I I think he settled in Gering, probably because there were three-three packing houses in Gering. And you know he got into the hide business. Now I don't know if he bought into the hide business. He never disclosed that to me, but he had a hide business, and it was kind of interesting. Two stories:

One of them was, is his profit margin. He always cut the tails off the hides that he carried out. And he said that was my profit margin. He hung them up in the rafters of the business place, and at year end he'd sell them to the, to the paintbrush people. And that was his profit margin. Apparently he made a lot of money on that, too. But that was kind of a neat story.

The other one was is when he was carrying out hides up in Chadron, I believe he told me. He had a heart attack and ended up obviously in the hospital and stuff. I never did find out. Obviously he made it out, but he always had a little bit of problems with the with the heart, and had to be very careful of diet and the like of that. But no, no. He was, he was somebody that you didn't mind hanging out with and listening to stories. So those are two stories that kind of stuck with me.

He was he was somebody when he invited you over you were gonna stay for the evening. Not only would you have a great meal, but you know, he'd break out all kinds of different wines and cognac. And you know you'd stagger home after a period of time. So just a great guy to be around.

So when you were, you know, interacting socially with Irving, was it typically like, you're going over to his house? You're getting dinner? Did you ever-were you ever doing involved with him socially in any other regards, in any different clubs or organizations around Gering, or anything like that?

You know, Irving was not somebody that was a joiner. He kind of kept to himself from that side of things. And II noticed that you had Rotary written down. I was a Rotarian. I think I started in 1992. I do not remember him being involved in-

He was not Rotarian because my next door neighbor was president of Rotary, and I did ask them this afternoon. You know when you have a swastika burned in your front yard. It makes you a little hesitant to put yourself out in the public eye constantly, because then I mean it, Irving was a great community person, a great citizen. And he had a wonderful circle of friends, but it wasn't a huge circle of friends, and I think he was cautious for good reason. You know you find people that that have prejudice everywhere, and there were obviously, as John said some in our community, and so he was not in civic organizations, and I did ask my neighbors, who have lived in town longer than I, if they knew if Clara was ever in any civic organizations, and they did not think so.

Okay.

You see, when I got to know him. Clara had already passed on, and I think Audra was living with him at that particular point in time. That was probably 1988, 1990s, somewhere in that neighborhood when I got to know him, so I don't know anything about Clara. He never talked about Clara all that much. He made a few references here and there, but never really talked very much about it at all.

Did you- were Irving's children still in the area around the time that you guys moved there?

Well, Irving had two children. Uh, what's his daughter's name?

Mar-Marlene

Marlene. Marlene was an aspiring actress, and Marlene had been married to a man in our community. Jim...

Zimmerman

Zimmerman. And they had one child that I know of, Levi, and he was the same age as my daughter. And they kind of shared custody. But she was in California. So he Levi, would go back and forth and back and forth. But basically custody was with his father in Gering, and Levi went to school in Gering until I think I don't know maybe Junior High or something, and then I think he may have gone to live with his mother. But she was an aspiring actress, and then his son Herschel, as far as I know, lived in Denver all while we he, Herschel, is now deceased, and I don't know about his daughter. I don't know if she's deceased or not at this point and then we kind of lost track of knowing much about them because Irving was gone. And so that's I don't know a whole lot about his children.

Yeah that, the only time that Irving talked about his son it was sports related. His son was involved, I think he was a quarterback on the team, but he also wrestled. And there was some some events where Irving went, and Herschel did pretty well, and there was a couple of other ones that he didn't do so well, so he didn't relate those stories to me. Hershel ended up being an attorney, and Rita's right, he went to he he lived in Denver, so I never got to know him all that well, but apparently, he was a very well liked and athletic young man.

When you were-so obviously there was some reasons in Gering to maybe keep the Jewish faith a little closer to home. But was Gering [Irving] ever, would Gering [Irving] ever share with his neighbors any part of his Jewish heritage or his Polish heritage, or anything like that in different holidays, or any anything like that?

I don't remember ever celebrating a Polish or a Jewish holiday with Irving. That is not to say he didn't celebrate them, but we were not a part of that. And you know he he may have he may have traveled over to see his son. I don't know, because we don't have any synagogue or anything in Gering or Scottsbluff, or anywhere close. So maybe he went to the city. He may have gone to Denver. I don't know that.

Okay. Thank you. And then the swastika. I wanna go back to that for a second here. Do you know if how? Besides the the hate group that that developed or was part of that did the community respond collectively in any way to what had happened? Or was that just-

You know I was not part of the community like I said I was. I was in a position of just going around and talking to various people that may be interested in starting a community bank, and at that time, if you, if you were around Gering, the two banks in Gering had failed, and they were bought by banks in Scottsbluff. So there was a there was quite a few people that says, "Hey, we we need a Gering bank." So that's really what I was trying to do was to develop an investor group. I was not living in the community. Actually, when I came into town I was running the bank in Bayard, at Nebraska, which, about 30 miles away. That was one of the banks that I consulted with during during the Ag crisis. So that's where I stayed, and I did not get any feedback from that and actually, after I moved to town and was there full time, II never heard any any anti-Semitic type of conversations or anything like that. So that was the only experience I had with it, and of course, Butch Stanko came out with his book, and and people have related that early on to me that there was a real hate group in Gering.

So John had not physically moved there, and he moved there two years, approximately, before I moved with the family. So at the time when the swastika was burned, John was not- we were not neighbors. We were not living down the street. He was actually staying in Bayard and coming home on the weekends to Lincoln.

There's probably 1986, 87 somewhere in there, and I started bank in 88 so.

Okay, okay. Thank you. Gotta get the dates all lined up in my head.

These are approximates too.

We're a little bit vague, it's so fun when you nod, because then we know we're remembering it correctly.

You know. Actually, I will tell you this, my background. I was from Pittsburgh. So when you're from Pittsburgh, each town seems to have its own ethninticity up and down the river. And you know, when you talk about minorities, I always thought you were talking about the Polish or the Czech, or the Germans and stuff like that. So I was absolutely shocked when I, when I saw that and witnessed, really kind of for the first time, that that kind of hate. Now, I was in Pittsburgh in 1968, when when we had the race riots, and it burned half of downtown Pittsburgh down, so I did see some of that hate during that particular point in time, but certainly not toward the Jewish community. So it was-it was an eye opener for me.

Moving, shifting a little bit to talk more about Irving's business. You mentioned the hide business, and then you mentioned the railroad or the rail-

Railcars. They they actually took railcars and refurbished the rail cars so that they could be put back in use. And that's what that's what they were doing.

Do you know of any businesses in between those two, or were those like his two main?

Those were the two ones that I knew, I think what had happened was Irving probably sold the hide business and I think he was somewhat retired. But Fred Lockwood needed some help after he bought this railcar business, it wasn't wasn't very profitable at all. And then Irving came in and kind of turned the whole business around made it extremely profitable.

Can you tell us anything about what that impact like the impact of a profitable business was on Gering? Did it provide a lot of jobs for people in the town?

You know it was it was a rather small business, I think. Four or five, six employees. You know, they took one individual car and re restored that at a time. There was times when they hit, may have had two or three of them backed up, but it was a smaller business, but like I said it was, it was profitable. You know, and it provided an employment base for for that number of people.

Okay.

The railroad business is very busy and and filled with life out where we live we have lots of railroad. So I'm sure the need was there.

Right, and I know from-I know this to be a fact. From from being his banker he sent a considerable contribution to the Holocaust Museum. And I- my recollection was, was it was a million dollars. So that's my recollection. It may have been something else. But

And he had, he was proud of the fact that they had photographed his tattoo, and it was one of the ones that was featured there.

Yeah. Yeah, that was the other- He made a point of telling me that. So. In fact, when I went to the Holocaust Museum, I believe I found his, his tattoo in his arm. So

I know that Steven Spielberg wanted to have a video of all the Holocaust survivors before they passed on. And I believe Irving was one of them. I'm I'm just II feel like I remember that for sure.

Yeah, we do have some video of Irving's testimony I believe, so more than likely.

I'll tell you if you want to spend. But we spent, I thought, one or one or two hours in the Holocaust Museum, and it ended up being four or five hours. I mean, it goes that fast. It is. It's very engaging.

Yeah, I was I was. This is not even part of the interview anymore. Sorry I was there in eighth grade. And now I want to go back again.

Yeah, I'd like to go back again.

Amazing.

Amazing stuff.

I wanted to ask a question real quick.

Sure!

First of all, I wanted to mention that Irving and Clara had a third child, and her name was Tania and she was married to Terry Moore and they lived in Omaha. He was the-

No kidding. Huh. And are they still living?

Terry is not well, but alive. And Tania passed away couple of years ago. So I didn't know if you knew that. And I wanted to ask also about the hide factories. We had heard through some family lore that he would often hire immigrants or Latinos who were living in the area, and I wanted to know if that was something you were knowledgeable about in any way.

I wasn't. I'm not knowledgeable about it. It doesn't surprise me. I mean, we have three packing houses. And we have a a 28% to 30% of our population is Hispanic. A lot of them move there family-wise for the sugar factory, and then worked the campaign, the sugar factory campaign, after they worked the fields. And I think we're in the third or in some cases, fourth generation, Hispanic folks out there. But you know, as a group, they're the workers. They provide that type of labor, so...

And knowing Irving, he was so inclusive and and really based on his life history and all that had gone on in his life, I would think he would be very inclusive of skilled workers who could do what he need- regardless of their heritage.

Right, thank you.

One more question about the business side of things but we were wondering if the Gering archives would have anything you think related to Irving's business that might be worth delving into at all, or getting into contact with some people about?

I will send you that as well. Our our museum which- Luckily, a few years back we had a couple of struggling museums, and they went together. So we have one main historic museum. It's called Legacy of the Plains. I will send you, I need to write all this down just for that, Carol and Fred. And then I will send you the executive director's name for Legacy of the Plains, and he'll he'll answer your email if you ask him. But that's a great idea.

Looking more for the legal documents?

Oh, go ahead, John.

I think you're looking for the legal documents that they may have filed right? I don't think the museum would have very much, but anyhow, it it always is worth your effort to to dig through. You know that the legal documentation.

So what specifically, were you asking about? I must have misunderstood.

Just anything, anything that will give us more of an idea-and Beth can maybe speak more to this than I can, but just that will give us more of an idea of what you know, how Irving's business was organized. Its impact on the community, that sort of thing.

I think, yeah, I think the archives or I'm sure the museum will be able to give us some, you know, helpful information. We just hadn't had a chance yet to reach out. And if you know the the executive director, clearly, that'll be very helpful.

And Fred would be able to tell you a lot about the railcar business, and probably very specifically, he's a CPA. So he'll know all the details. As far as the hide business, did he have an accountant, or well, Fred was his accountant.

You know I would think Fred was his accountant in the hide business. I think that's how they became friendly. So that would, Fred would definitely know him from a from a different aspect, which is business aspect.

Oh, I do wanna ask you had mentioned a little bit at the beginning of this interview about some of the business stories, or some of the ways you know how great of a business person Irving was, could you speak more to that? Any more stories you have about?

Yeah, you know when your banker as long as I had been a banker you get to know people and and their level of expertise, and you can kinda tell that right away. I put Irving in the top top rung of business people. He's he just has a knack of looking at a business and being able to turn it, turn it around and and make make it profitable. You know he does the little things, the important things, that that that make a difference in a business. You know, as I said in the hide business, that the tails of the of the cattle were were his profit margin. I'm sure he made profit on the hides. But who would've ever thought that you could sell the tails to the brush companies, and I'm sure he commanded a premium for it too. The railcar business was not profitable. He took it over. And all of a sudden boom. It's turning, turning some substantial profit. So he just had that knack and he was like, I said he was one of the top business people that I've met and and been around throughout my lifetime. And that's 40 years of being a banker. So -or 45 years of being a banker. So anyhow, he was a great guy to be around, smart guy but somebody that really was passionate and cared about a lot about, you know, relationships and people.

Could you expand a little bit more about what you meant by like the little things, the important things that Irving did?

Yeah, you know I'm just saying I'm saying that, there is the example of where he would cut of the tails off and hang them up and dry them and get them ready for sale. A lot of people wouldn't mess with that. And so that's a that's a primary example. I'm sure, in the rail car business he was probably using some of the scrap and reconditioning that scrap and making it work in the reconditioning of the rail cars. And it's those little things when put together, add up to a considerable profitability. But he was, he had attention for detail. Had a prin- a way of looking at business and putting all those pieces together. And, you know, he, like I said, he's just one of the the top business people that I'd been around.

Um, Mrs. Stinner, in one of your emails earlier you mentioned some community stories that you guys were aware of. Can you elaborate on any of these? Any I-

Well, as new residents of Gering in 1990. We didn't know that many people and Irving asked John to be his banker, and as John had mentioned, two other banks had failed, and John started a bank from scratch, which no one ever does. I mean he started with creating a charter and opening doors to the public. And Irving was one of the people that believed in John, and and chose to bank with him and so then, being three doors down Irving would invite us over. And one of the things I remember is, our children were always welcome. Now, at the time we moved there our children were 7 and 11, and a lot of people if you were, gonna have folks over for the evening or for a meal you wouldn't invite their children, especially Irving's children, were grown and gone, but he always invited our children, and they developed a love for going to his house, and it was always very interesting, because I can't recount any of the stories, but Irving always had many, many stories, and then some evenings we would be there with other adult couples from the community, and he would serve Dom Perignon which most of the rest of us have never even tasted, and he would bring it out he only the finest, you know. Irving had had so many awful things happened to him as a child, and he loved life, and he loved to share what he had with others. And when you think about how he was, would have been treated as a child, and all the terrible things that happened either around him or to his family. And yet he would invite people in, and only the finest for these friends and share whatever he had, and he really relished life. Joie de vivre.

I love thinking about the fact that he was so young when the war was over. Do you know, if he had any schooling or formal education to, you know, come into business-

That's a great question.

-to know about you know life in the way that he did out in Gering?

Boy, I don't know. I know when he went to, I think it was Montreal, right is, when was the city he was at? It was a tool and dye shop that he started with. And I don't know what his job was there, but he worked there for a period of time, and then obviously came to Gering.

Well, did you say Alliance first?

Well, the people who were his sponsors were in Alliance, I think, and he may have come to Alliance first. I he never did divulge that to me. He never talked about his parents. He never talked very much about his family at all. I think he had a brother. But I, you know, to tell you the truth, I don't know where the brother is. He- the brother might have stayed in Canada for all I know. But anyhow, you guys may know more about that than I do.

You know he was smart, he was smart. And he had an incredible work ethic. And when a person applies themselves and they have natural abilities, and they want it, the sky's the limit, and I think for him, he desired to achieve and to succeed and to live. And he did that.

No, he did. So you mentioned that he didn't speak about his family much. He didn't and you, but you did read his book. He gave you his book to talk about his experiences. Was that the only -- is that the only time you discussed his life during the Holocaust? Or was that ever brought up in conversation when you guys were together at one of those social events or otherwise?

I think I read his book after he died.

Okay.

He wasn't one to dwell on negativity. He wasn't one to dwell on sadness. And if you asked him a question I believe he would have answered it. but he didn't dwell in that part of his life. He dwelled on the future and on the present, and on the joy of living, so I didn't I don't recall him talking a lot about his, his sadder times. I knew that his family was killed except for his brother. And you know, when you're kind of a new friend. You hesitate to ask too personal of things of someone who has been through a hard time. If he volunteered it, or or we had a question, he would answer it. But we didn't go there. We didn't have that kind of relationship, I guess.

Did he give you any insight ever into why he remained in Nebraska specifically for so long?

Well, he didn't- you know he he never did. I think it was the business and the packing plants that he was in obviously drew him there. And then obviously got involved with Fred in the railcar business, and he had a very nice home. So that's what I presume, you know, you you stay where your business is, and you're comfortable there. And so that's that's probably why you stay.

Well, and secondarily, or maybe primarily, he had children in a school system, and his children were succeeding, and they were excelling. And he probably wanted. And and I never knew Clara, but Clara may have enjoyed the, the nice, secure, positive life they had there, and her children being successful, she may have had some input in that. I really don't know, but it would seem to me that that he felt like Gering was a good place to raise his kids.

I know that Irving was involved in the Democratic party in Nebraska, and as a politician yourself, did you ever interact with him, talk about politics, anything like that?

My relationship with Irving was before I became a politician or even interested in politics. But I know he was a Democrat. He knew I was a Republican. He was always he always felt comfortable that the Democratic party, you know, represented his best interest, and that that's kind of the way, that's the way we just left it.

Okay.

And he may have invited other active Democrats over to his home as well cause it seems to me, when we were there, as I look back at some of the other faces, you know, that were there with us, that I think he he enjoyed the company of other Democrats, but he certainly never never talked about why we were Republican or why he was Democrat to us, that wasn't a source of conversation.

Okay. Did you ever hear any of Irving's speeches about his experience?

You know I missed them, but I heard they were very, very moving. Yeah, I think it was at Gering High School when John was there giving it. I think it's right, but I don't know that to be a fact. But no, I never did.

Did you hear from other members of the community that it was moving or from your son?

Oh, yes absolutely. Yep.

Okay

One of the things that you will find. I'm sorry to interrupt. Abby has been going through the speeches, the notes that he left. So it's very interesting for us to see, you know, that there's this side of him that was so quiet and powerful for him as well. And she's been putting these up on the website that you'll see as well as some other letters and and correspondence that we've discovered.

And did he leave those to an archive? How did you-how were you able to obtain them?

Most of them we received through Paul Smith, the educator, who Irving either gave them to Paul or to Audra. And she passed it on because he was teaching Irving's story in the classroom for years.

Nice. Wonderful.

I was going to ask if you guys have any photographs of Irving at all from neighborhood gatherings or anything like that?

I sure don't.

I don't remember any any, but if we run across something we'll let you know.

Appreciate it, appreciate it. And then we also have some documents while we're on the topic of documents, from Senators Nelson and Kerry related to Irving. Did you guys, were you guys aware of any of this? Did you know about any of that?

You know, I think I remember seeing him in a picture with Bob Kerry, in a photograph. But no, I, that's all news to me.

Well, and it sounds like he was somewhat of a political animal, so it doesn't surprise me that he had connections there.

I know he liked Bob Kerry a lot. He, you know, talked about Bob Kerry's when he was a governor, and some some of the times that they they actually got together and had dinner or whatever. So yeah, he had, I think, a pretty good relationship with Bob.

Thank you. I'm trying to...

I gotta look at the questions.

I'm looking at them, too, just trying to bring into the conversation.

You yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah. I guess I'm kind of at the end of my questions, I think. Is there anything that you think is important for us to know about Irving and about his time in Gering and your relationship with him?

We were blessed. I always felt blessed to know Irving. It was very sad when he passed on, and he was he was so welcoming and so positive and nurturing, and we were new to the community. He had no reason to pay any attention to us, but it was, I just have very, very fond feelings of him.

Yeah, I-I've always been impressed with his background and all the adversary he had to deal with. It's really a commentary on the human spirit. What he went through, and and to be the person that he that he was, you know, a loving, caring person that was very passionate about what he did. So it it says a lot about the human spirit. Let's put it that way.

Really awesome to hear. Beth, I don't know if you have any questions you wanna ask?

I don't think so. I do want to just mention also, I think because it's important to have it recorded. We were able to receive information from Herschel a number of years before he passed away. I was in contact with Herschel and the Holocaust Museum in D.C. connected with the family, and they discovered the what happened to Irving's brother.

Oh.

So that material, Abby is going to be working on also, and we'll be putting that up. But his brother was separated from him in Majdanek, and he searched for him the rest of his life. And he did not know, he passed away before the museum was able to recive the materials that had been behind the Iron Curtain and his brothers lived until the very end of the war and he died in a hospital in in Germany, and Herschel was able to, they actually have a gravesite for him.

Okay, wow.

So Hershel was able to go to the community where where he was buried, and they put a memorial up and and Herschel, and his, I think his children went with him. I'm not sure but so there was closure, at least for the next generation but Hershel but Irving looked for him all his life.

Yeah and my conversations with Irv, he seldom ever talked about it, but he did talk a little bit about a brother. I just assumed that they made it out together and made it to Canada, but apparently not, huh. That's too bad.

How long have you been working on this project? This is massive.

It is massive. Go ahead Abby.

Oh, yeah. I I've been working with Irving for over a year now. But yes, obviously Beth has been working on it much, much longer.

Wow! And did you did you know Irving, Beth?

I did not.

Wow! I'm just so impressed. So impressed. Now I can't wait to go to the site and and read all everything that's posted.

Actually, I'd like to like to go to the site and read it, because there's a lot of things that would fill in gaps for me as well. So

There's a ton of information, it's it's really cool to start digging through so.

I'm gonna stop the recording real quick.

I want to make sure I have-